Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Florence Fuller/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:GrahamColm 10:02, 15 December 2013 (UTC).

Florence Fuller

 * Nominator(s): hamiltonstone (talk) 11:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because, when I learned that the National Gallery of Australia had targeted Florence Fuller's A Golden Hour for its 2013 annual Masterpieces for the Nation Fund purchase, I was embarrassed to discover that this extraordinary artist didn't even have a WP entry. A professional painter while still in her teens, independent citizen of the world, friend to global leader of the Theosophy movement Annie Besant, and beneficiary of the admiration of Sir John Winthrop Hackett, Florence Fuller was an intriguing figure who faded almost out of view. This article has been my most intensively researched to date.

Note on bibliography: the newspaper citation format used here is one generated specifically for Wikipedia use by the National Library of Australia, re-publisher of the materials. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:24, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Quotes should be cited immediately in the lead, per WP:LEADCITE
 * Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Is there a page somewhere discussing the NLA citation format?
 * Australian_Wikipedians'_notice_board/Archive_37 is where community members learned of it, but I haven't identified a further discussion as such. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * FN48: formatting. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I might just clarify what's happening in this note, and you can let me know the problem. The footnotes that reference online information about her individual paintings (currently 45, 46, 48) are in the format: author name [=painter] (year [=year painting created]). "title" [=title of painting]. work [=section of the website in which it is found]. Publisher of website [=gallery that holds the work]. Retrieval date. Was your concern the fact that a range of years is used to describe when this work was created (which is what the website uses), or something else? hamiltonstone (talk) 22:54, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Ah, okay. That raises an issue I hadn't noticed with a couple of other citations as well: you're citing the painting via the gallery (and so using the date the painting was created as publication date), but these citations are being used to support the fact that her paintings are held by several organizations, and so it's the organizations' pages about the artworks that should be cited (which were created much more recently). The paintings' existence and content are not the important bit for our purposes here, it's who holds them. Does that make sense? (Noting that in addition to the date issue, the artwork titles should be italicized). Nikkimaria (talk) 00:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I understand and agree, but it got awkward. Only half had any date for the website's publication at all, but all provided the date of acquisition. I have now made the date of creation part of the work title, and inserted the dates of acquisition (along with the word "purchased") in the field for citing the reference year. Do you think that is sufficient, or do you think I should also remove Fuller's name as author, and change that to the gallery name, adding Fuller's name to the title of the work, alongside the painting title? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:47, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
 * I think what you've done is okay. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)


 * FN12: should include full citation
 * Done. hamiltonstone (talk) 09:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Don't need to double "edition" on newspaper editions. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:31, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Changed. Thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 09:35, 30 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comments from Quadell

Question: You list the source for File:Florence Fuller 1897.tiff as "Adelaide Chronicle". Do you have any further information? Was it published in the Chronicle in 1897, or later? – Quadell (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Nevermind, I found it. It was printed in the 17 April 1897 edition, and had no author specified. This is useful information for clarifying the copyright status, and should be added to the image description page. – Quadell (talk) 21:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Question: Is File:Florence Fuller - Inseparables - Google Art Project.jpg worth including? I assume it would be in the "Europe and South Africa" section. – Quadell (talk) 21:19, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Clearly didn't do my homework there. Thank you for seeing that. i have now included it, and will also check a couple of sources for any commentary on that particular work. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:58, 14 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I notice you usually omit the serial comma, buh in some cases you use one. I can help make them consistent as I copyedit, but can I assume you would prefer that the text not use them?
 * The older I get, the worse I am at this. I don't know why. Do, please, omit them if you find them. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)


 * "Other Australian artists hung at the same time included..." Oooh, this sounds like the severe enforcement of a new anti-painting act.
 * No, were that the case then it would have been "Other Australian artists hanged at the same time included..." ;-) hamiltonstone (talk) 10:21, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well, okay, but it still sounds jarring to my ear. Can we change it to "Other Australian artists whose works were [hung/presented] at the same time" or something? – Quadell (talk) 14:34, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Changed. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:11, 29 November 2013 (UTC)


 * When the article says she was described as a "visitor" to Sydney, the citations don't make clear who described her as such. Direct quotes, even one-word ones, need to be explicitly and unambiguously sourced.
 * Fixed (in the course of other revisions) hamiltonstone (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

A fun article, and as complete as the remaining facts allow. – Quadell (talk) 21:43, 26 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Your recent additions are excellent, and really flesh out the article. I am currently going through and proofreading. Most of my changes are, I think, uncontroversial, but a few are a bit on the bold side. If you disagree with any of them, feel free to revert and discuss. I should finish up my proofreading and review in the next few days. – Quadell (talk) 14:34, 28 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Question: With the addition of new sources, including McFarlane, is note 1 still accurate? – Quadell (talk) 16:09, 28 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your close attention to the article. Unfortunately yes, note 1 remains accurate. The major new sources focus overwhelmingly on her period with theosophy, and don't say much about other periods. hamiltonstone (talk) 22:38, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Support: This article is excellent. It's well-written, fully sourced, and as complete as possible. I still think it would better to find a way to avoid the "other artists were hung" phrasing, but it's not an impediment to Featured status. This fulfills our our FA requirements, and should be featured. – Quadell (talk) 22:56, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Comments, leaning support : Another excellent, very readable article on an Australian artist. With the disclaimer that I have no subject knowledge here, this looks as comprehensive as possible and I notice that the GA review covered the area of sourcing (i.e. this has everything that is out there). Just a few minor points before I switch to full support. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * ”In 1892 she left Australia, travelling first to South Africa, where she met and painted for Cecil Rhodes, and then on to Europe, where she lived and studied for the subsequent decade, apart from a return to South Africa in 1899 to paint Rhodes' portrait.”: Quite a long sentence. Maybe it could be split?
 * Split in two. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:56, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”who was regarded as "the leading female artist in the group of Melbourne painters who broke with the nineteenth-century tradition of studio art by sketching and painting directly from nature”.”: Do we need intext attribution here for the quote?
 * Have identified it as from the ADB. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:56, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”Fuller first studied at the Académie Julian, where her teachers included William-Adolphe Bouguereau, and later with Raphaël Collin, managing one of his studios for a time.” As written this looks like Collin was managing his own studio. I suspect it was Fuller who did so.
 * changed. See if this works. hamiltonstone (talk) 10:56, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”Despite this, Fuller appeared to develop her skills there, with contemporary critics favourably noting the influence of the French training.”: Why “appeared”? And I’m not sure that a note can be favourable. What about “favourably commenting”? Or just “noting”?
 * What about this? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * The second paragraph of Europe and South Africa has a string of four references at the beginning. It is a bit unsightly, and I wonder if it could be spread out somehow, or if all of them are necessary?
 * I can't spread them readily, as the assembly of that sentence was a bit complicated, but I have worked out that one of the three can be omitted altogether, and have deleted it. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”There were exhibitions in many other locations”: I’m sure there were. But did Fuller take part in them??? What about “She exhibited in many other locations” or similar?
 * Perhaps I got too enthusiastic in my bid to vary the prose style! Redone per your suggestion.hamiltonstone (talk) 11:08, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”There was even a painting, Landscape, hung in the exhibition for the fiftieth anniversary of the founding of Bendigo.”: Again, presumably one of hers?
 * I understand your point, but i don't think it could be read any other way, could it? hamiltonstone (talk) 11:18, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”Another source reports that Fuller also travelled and made sketches in Wales, Ireland and Italy.”: Worth saying what source?
 * Tweaked. Incidentially, the reason there are no names for sources like this, is because most press reports of the period have no named author. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:18, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”Theosophy”: For lazy readers like me, is it worth adding a few words to say what this is, so we don’t have to click the link?
 * Do you know what it's like trying to describe theosophy in a few words? It is one of those maddening concepts that seems to elude conciseness ;-) Will have a go. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, done. hamiltonstone (talk) 01:13, 27 November 2013 (UTC)


 * ”When it was announced that Besant would undertake a speaking tour of Australia in 1908, she was expected to stay with Fuller while in Perth.”: From the way this is phrased, I assume we don’t have a source which says that she actually did so?
 * Correct. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * It seems from the article that she found something in India which inspired her, but the quote suggests that she had not quite found how to express it yet. Did she find a way later on? The article sort of goes quiet on this.
 * Unfortunately, the quote i have used comes from the sole source I have located that quotes/reports Fuller's own words or thoughts. I'm not aware of whether she did find a way later on. What I would surmise, but of course can't write in the article, is that the decline in her reputation in her own lifetime suggests that she did not find what she sought, at least not in the realm of painting. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * I take it that nothing more is known about her later life from the 1920s onwards?
 * Correct. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * In the last paragraph, we have “Yet although…” to begin a sentence, then two sentences later “Despite this…”. I wonder are we overdoing the contrasts here?
 * I read it and re-read it, but the two contrasts in this case don't bother me. I would be happy to revise it, but can't think of an alternative phrasing that doesn't fall foul of the opposite problem: failing to draw attention to something that is an important contrast or surprise. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Note 50: “Robb, Gwenda; Elaine Smith (1993). "Florence Fuller". In Robert Smith”: Should it be “Robb, Gwenda; Smith, Elaine (1993). "Florence Fuller". In Smith, Robert”?
 * Actually, this seems to happen in a couple of references which have multiple authors. I think it can be avoided by using last1, first1, last2, first2… Sarastro1 (talk) 19:56, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Well here's the thing: that outcome is what is produced by using WP's own semi-automated referencing template for multiple authors. So my inclination is not to go messing with it, though I am aware different outcomes can be produced. hamiltonstone (talk) 11:34, 24 November 2013 (UTC)

Support: I'm happy with the changes and replies above. I'd still like the lazy-reader-definition of Theosophy, but if it's a horrible thing to define concisely, don't bother with it. Either way, it does not affect my support for this excellent article. A really impressive piece of research, even by Hamiltonstone's standards. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:14, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for that, Sarastro, and don't worry I am still planning to do that sentence on Theosophy. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:50, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
 * After Hamiltonstone contacted me to inform me that the article had been expanded a little, I've looked at the changes and am still more than happy to support. I only wonder about the use of quotation marks around "discovered", but I know why they are there and cannot think of a better way to achieve the effect, so I have no problem with it. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:23, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Support Comments  I reviewed this at GAN and note that it has been expanded. I recall this being on the way to FA status - will jot final queries below : Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:02, 2 December 2013 (UTC)


 *  Fuller was highly regarded in her lifetime as a portrait and landscape painter, and it was reported in 1914 that Fuller was represented in four public galleries - be good if we could lose one Fuller here...how about "Highly regarded in her lifetime as a portrait and landscape painter, Fuller was reputedly represented in four public galleries—three in Australia and one in South Africa—in 1914, a record for an Australian female painter at that time"
 * Did this, and got rid of the "reported| / "reputedly" altogether, as there is no actual reason to doubt this report - it is not inconsistent with any other source. hamiltonstone (talk) 03:16, 6 December 2013 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 15:44, 14 December 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.