Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flow (video game)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 22:10, 19 March 2011.

Flow (video game)

 * Nominator(s):  Pres N  00:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

A year ago I successfully brought Flower through FAC... so I thought that I would try to do it again, but with two less letters. Flow is, like its spiritual successor, an indie video game, originally played millions of times as a free flash game and then successfully used to launch thatgamecompany to prominence on the PS3. As an artistic indie game it didn't get as much attention as the big-budget games, but I've pulled together everything that I could find. The article has been thoroughly copyedited by JimmyBlackwing, so I think it's ready for the spotlight. Thanks for reviewing! -- Pres N  00:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * As PresN said, I copyedited the article; the blame's on me if any criterion 1a issues arise. I'll address such concerns as quickly as possible. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 02:19, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Driveby comment - I may complete a fuller review later, but for now I have a quick question. The article's direct quotes and many of its reference titles use the "flOw" stylization, but the article's prose mostly uses "Flow". Why? Nikkimaria (talk) 05:08, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Manual of Style (capital_letters) - "Trademarks should be written in a way that follows standard English text formatting and capitalization rules." -- Pres N  09:17, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Okay, sounds good. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

Source review Otherwise, sources look okay, links check out. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Earwig's tool found only mirrors, a few quick spotchecks found no concerning close paraphrasing
 * Ref 9: source gives author as Ross Miller, not Glen Miller
 * This returns a 404 error
 * Argh, that link worked literally yesterday; their internal search still points to it. Added an archiveurl. That Glen Miller thing is funny, though. -- Pres N  21:05, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Found where they moved the article to. Left in the archiveurl, though. -- Pres N  22:31, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Support. Reviewed the images; both non-frees have appropriate detailed rationales for their use (the only nit, but not failing, is that the title icon points to the redirect page, but that's acceptable). Rest of article reads well and appears to be very comprehensive about the game's development and reception. Support. --M ASEM (t) 13:38, 10 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Redirect link fixed. Thanks for the review! -- Pres N  18:53, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments by H3llkn0wz
Resolved comments from — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)


 * content=*Infobox: "Life Simulation" -- "S" should not be capitalized.
 * Done.-- Pres N 


 * Infobox image caption: "PlayStation Store icon" -- surely, this is game icon in the store, not the store icon; minor nitpick.
 * Done.-- Pres N 


 * Lead: You should probably link to "indie video game" or at least "indie video game"
 * Done, that article didn't exist when I wrote this.-- Pres N 


 * Lead: "master's thesis" -- "M" should be capitalized, also you can link it wholly to Master's thesis to redirect to thesis in case an article pops up one day.
 * Linked, but "master's degree" isn't capitalized- "Master of Arts" is. See master's degree.-- Pres N 
 * Oh, right, this is US! I'm used to Master's degree in Europe. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK


 * Lead: "Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's theoretical concept of flow." -- is there a concise way of describing "flow" (like "mental flow", "mental immersion or flow" or something) to give the indication what it refers to without having the reader follow the link?
 * Changed to "mental immersion or flow".-- Pres N 


 * Note on Gameplay -- I have not played this, so I am reading this without knowing what the game is about.
 * Gameplay: "In Flow,.." perhaps mention that this is the original Flash version. Otherwise upon start of "PlayStation versions" this got a little bit confusing. It also says "In the Flash version" about orange cells; so this is a bit confusing too. I assume the whole Gameplay lead is applicable to the Flash version. Then "PlayStation versions" should list the differences.
 * Any sentence/section that does not specifically call out a version applies to both. I missed one right at the beginning, which I think was the source of your confusion.-- Pres N 


 * Gameplay: "In Flow, the player guides a small, multi-segmented creature through an aquatic environment, and causes that creature to eat other organisms,.." -- perhaps there is a better wording than "causes", for example "In Flow, the player guides a small, multi-segmented creature through an aquatic environment, making it eat other organisms,.." I may be wrong, I've no idea how it works.
 * "Causes" is right- the creature automatically eats if there's something directly in front of its mouth (1st sentence, 2nd paragraph.) The player is "causing" it to happen, not "making" the creature eat- there's no direct control there.-- Pres N 
 * Since I was reading this sequentially, I got a little confused. Taking into account later comment, I would write it as "In Flow, the player guides a small, multi-segmented creature through an aquatic environment. As the creature moves about, it eats other organisms, grows larger and eventually dives deeper into the sea." I know it's wordier, but at least it gets the point across. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * I'm not sure that's an improvement. I'll see if I can come up with something clearer than "causes", though. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Well, whatever works. I'm just trying to look at this from general reader's perspective. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "The game world is divided into bright, two-dimensional planes stacked vertically upon each other" -- this is the first and last mention of planes being "bright". From context, I have no idea what this means; the screenshot isn't particularly bright either. perhaps this warrants a better explanation (or can be omitted)?
 * Changed to "colored".-- Pres N 
 * Do you mean "distinctly-colored" between layers? — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK
 * I axed the offending word; it just struck me as unnecessary. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: You could link gaming term game world autoredirected to fictional universe.
 * That is a very unlikely article to ever get split out, in my opinion, and I don't see how fictional universe is useful to the reader in this case.-- Pres N 
 * Fair enough. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "a blurred version of the level below appears in the background of each plane" -- I think "level" should be called "plane" for consistency or "layer" if you want to use a synonym, otherwise it's ambiguous with "level (video gaming)" (unless that's what's meant, in which case, it should be linked).
 * Hmm, see what you mean. Changed to layer.-- Pres N 


 * Gameplay: "when eaten, release edible cells that increase the number of segments in the player's creature" -- This makes it sound like cells are released after you consume/eat another creature? But from further context/description it seems creatures drop cells upon death that may or may not be eaten by the player.
 * When you eat a creature, it releases cells that you can then also eat.JimmyBlackwing (talk)
 * Hmm, changed. The non-confrontation ones just restore health, they don't drop cells. Only confrontational ones do that. -- Pres N 


 * Gameplay: "contain two colored organisms that move the player's creature up or down one plane" - "two-colored" via hyphen. Also, move how up or down? By finding them? Just by touching them? By eating them?
 * Actually, there are two organisms, not numerous two-colored organisms. I'll clarify the wording shortly.JimmyBlackwing (talk)
 * No, 2 colored ones. One goes up, one goes down. I put in "touching them"; technically the creature does the eating motion but the creatures don't get devoured. -- Pres N 


 * Gameplay: Having read the this sequentially, some things make better sense only after reading later sentences. Perhaps this should be structured a bit better. For example, give an introductory sentence that explains that the world contains hostile and non-hostile creatures, all of them can be killed (eaten? I'm still not sure how this works) for cells, and these cells either heal or evolve (the ref #4 says that).
 * I'll take a stab at this later today. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Gameplay: There is no mention of top-down perspective.
 * Added-- Pres N 


 * Gameplay: Basic controls are not explained (I assume: propel, turn, attack, special ability, change plane?). Though this may not need more than a very brief mention.
 * Nope, the creature just follows the cursor in the Flash version, and follows the six-axis controller in the PS3 version. Hitting any button causes it to do the special move. It should be a bit clearer after the above changes that eating/attacking/changing planes is automatic; you just guide the creature around. Added in the button thing.-- Pres N 
 * I'll add a bit about this when I rearrange the section. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "one that has short bursts of speed" -- "has"? I believe the creature "can gain short burst of speed" or similar. This "makes sense" from gamer's perspective but reads weird from general reader's pov.
 * Hmm, reworded.-- Pres N 


 * Is art game or video game art applicable for linking anywhere? Does "several considered it to be more of an art piece than a game" contain any refs that say this is an art-driven game?
 * Linked in the lead, good call. As to the second... umm, that sentence is immediately followed by four cited quotes calling it just that.-- Pres N 
 * Oh, I only looked at lead for now. The second sentence about refs was implying that more mention might be given to the art-related design decisions of the game. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK


 * I will hopefully read the rest later. Sorry for nitpicking, but FA is FA. In any case, nice work on indie games articles! — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 10:44, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll hit the prose-related issues in the next hour or two. I left a few notes of explanation above. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 19:49, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Argh, massive edit conflict. Replied inline. -- Pres N  19:56, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I added a couple more replies. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:32, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I'll check out other sections tomorrow. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 22:52, 24 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Sounds good. I rearranged Gameplay in an attempt to make it easier to understand. I hope it addresses your concern. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 22:57, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

— HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 20:34, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Would MOS:TM not apply to "thatgamecompany" as well? As in -- write it as "Thatgamecompany" without stylized "t".
 * Lead: So does Master's thesis need capitalization? If this is a US degree, then I think it does not?
 * Lead: "consuming other organisms and evolving in the process." -- serial comma before "and" for consistency with use later one.
 * Gameplay picture: "showing the player's creature—a multi-segmented worm" -- "worm" strictly speaking contradicts "snake- or worm-like".
 * Gameplay: First use of "Flash: is not linked (as opposed to PS3/PSP)
 * Gameplay: "In the Flash version, an aggressive organism on the bottom plane releases an orange cell after being defeated; when the player's creature eats the cell, an egg floats to the highest plane and the player starts over controlling a jellyfish-like organism. When the player reaches the bottom again, the creature there is their original worm organism, and defeating it starts the game over as a worm." Can this be trimmed to "In the Flash version, the player can replay the game with a jellyfish-like organism by defeating an aggressive creature on the bottom plane. When the player reaches the bottom again, the creature there is their original organism, and defeating it starts the game over as the worm-like organism."? I think (from context) that "orange cell" and "egg floats to first plane" is trivia. Also "worm-like" per above about picture title.
 * Development: "master's thesis" -- same as lead
 * Development: ''"It's the simplest test of active DDA". " -- period should be before quote
 * Development: "Flow convinced Sony to provide thatgamecompany with finances" -- Flow cannot "convince". I would say "Impressed by Flow, Sony provided thatgamecompany with.."
 * Development: "finances, supplies and additional staff" -- serial comma
 * Development: "for the November 2006 launch of the PlayStation Network; when it was finally released in February 2007" -- I would say split this very long sentence in two just before "when". For example, "However, when it was finally.."
 * Reception: PlayStation Network first occurrance wikilink.
 * Reception: "It received 2008 Game Developers Choice Awards nominations" -> "the 2008 Game Developers Choice Awards nominations"
 * Reception: "Its visuals and presentation were among its" - repeating "its" -> "The visuals and presentation were among its"
 * Reception: "were among its most highly praised elements" - "most highly" -> "highest"
 * Reception: "Reviewers were mixed in their opinions on its gameplay" -- I think "the gameplay" is a little more straight-forward, since we all know what gameplay this is talking about, and "its" so often sounds a bit misplaced.
 * Reception: ''"felt that "anything more complicated would take away from the friendly nature of an experience of this type". " -- period before quote.
 * Reception: "Roper stated that "there really isn't any sort of a challenge here", " -- not sure about this one; the sentence in ref ends with that but, this isn't the whole sentence.
 * Reception: "Calvart saying that "whatever it is[,] it's not good"." -- obvious punctuation error correction can be made in quoted text without sic notes.
 * Reception: "more akin to an art piece than a game" -- art game link as first occurrance.
 * Reception: You should probably include Videogamer.com review
 * Reception: Situational review at Joystiq, author seems credible
 * Refs: "BAFTA - Games Nominations 2007" -- since that's not the actual page title, you may as well put ndash there.
 * Refs: "Sumilkumar, Nikita" -- it's "Sunilkumar
 * I took a shot at fixing most of the prose-related issues. However, some of the best copyeditors on Wikipedia use periods after quotation marks, so I'd argue that changing them is not necessary. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 20:59, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I am referring to MOS:LQ of leaving the original punctuation inside quotes. In this case, full sentence stop period. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 21:07, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * I see. I haven't read the WP Manual of Style in probably 4 years, so I guess I'm a little rusty/out-of-date in that regard. I've applied the changes. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 21:12, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Hit all of the points that JimmyBlackwing didn't; everything should now be done except for those two reviews. Looking into them now. -- Pres N  22:13, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Added the VideoGamer.com review, as it's rated as a reliable source by WP:VG/RS as it "Provides content for Virgin Media.[9] Full-time staff includes industry veterans.[10][11]" (Didn't know that!) Did not add the Joystiq review- though he does seem credible, and I'd like to use the review, Joystiq is a situational source and I can't find any proof that Andrew Yoon has ever written for anything besides Joystiq or worked in the industry in another way. -- Pres N  22:28, 25 February 2011 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, I never actually checked what web-sites are prominent/excluded from FAs besides the VG/RS list. I know Joystiq is situational, but it just "seems" solid. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 10:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: Since "cell" links to cell (biology) should a note be made that this is "..composed of virtual cells that.." or some other word that clearly indicates this is not an actual cell/cell simulation?
 * Eh, I think it's obvious that we're not talking a full cell simulation in this case, as it's a video game with a lot of gaming abstractions. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: Can "add-on pack" be linked to expansion pack; it's on the technical side of VG terms
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "features a multiplayer mode for up to four players" -- first occurance wikilink multiplayer mode as a VG term
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: May be link vortex? It's not in the top10k English words. I'm not sure on this; same argument could extend to paralysis and jellyfish.
 * Eh, I feel like it's still common enough. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Gameplay: "When the player reaches the bottom plane with each creature, the next creature type is unlocked; unlocked organisms become selectable at the beginning of the game." --> "When the player reaches the bottom plane with each creature, the next creature type is unlocked and becomes selectable at the beginning of the game." trim a little redundancy and semicolon.
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)


 * Refs: "BAFTA — Games Nominations 2007" should either be "BAFTA—Games Nominations 2007" or "BAFTA – Games Nominations 2007" -- mdashes aren't spaced.
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:50, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

— HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 10:21, 26 February 2011 (UTC)}}


 * Support. Seems good to me. — HELL KNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:58, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Comments
 * Maybe instead of a single link for "master's thesis" you could link master's to master's degree and thesis to, well, thesis?
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)


 * "Its design is based ..." perhaps better to reiterate the game here, so "The game's design..."
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Done, good call. Made it British Academy of Film and Television Arts (BAFTA). -- Pres N  20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * "the British Academy of Film and Television Arts." would be tempted to abbreviate this here so British readers get it's BAFTA.
 * "A PlayStation 3 version was announced for " already abbreviated to PS3 so use it.
 * Done. -- Pres N  20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The Rambling Man (talk) 20:18, 7 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Addressed, thanks! -- Pres N  20:35, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

Support. However, if you could find sources on its free release it had for a period of time on the PlayStation 3 (which I can personally verify as I obtained it through it), that'd be great. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:42, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * I have a source, but I don't think it's notable- Feb 13, 2010, three years after release, Sony made it free for one day as a promotional thing. Not a big deal, in my opinion. -- Pres N  19:49, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Yeah, I couldn't find anything either. Oh well. Good job on the article! - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:52, 11 March 2011 (UTC)

Comments: Here are the issues that stood out to me. The articles looks good otherwise. Keep up the good work. (Guyinblack25 talk 21:22, 11 March 2011 (UTC))
 * The description at File:Psn flow icon.png should be more detailed.
 * Alt text would be good for the images.
 * I would remove the defined sizes for the images and use the "upright" parameter for File:Jenova Chen - 2007.jpg.
 * Can you provide a rationale for ref 9 from Joystiq?
 * Just quickly noting that alt text, while nice to have, is not currently an FA requirement. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:53, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Done, done done, and as to ref 9 it's an interview with Chen by Ross Miller, who is currently one of the editors at Engadget, so I'm relying on him as an SPS, not on Joystiq as an RS itself. -- Pres N  22:08, 11 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Support: Everything looks good and I think the article meets the FA criteria. (Guyinblack25 talk 14:46, 14 March 2011 (UTC))


 * Leaning Support I'll run my own grammar/flow check later, but some minor things:
 * File:Psn flow icon.png - if it's on multiple platforms, couldn't just the flOw text be used as a smaller use of non-free content (assuming that the PSP and PS3 versions are different covered, and/or that the Flash game had that text)?
 * File:Flow game screenshot.jpg - I'm not convinced you need such a large image to convey the 2D aspect and minimalist style—you could drop it to <.1 megapixels at a resolution of 400 x 228 pixels without impinging visibility of the small dots. Also, uploading as a PNG will clean up the scaling artifacts when the image is thumbed, which might be a good choice for this type of content.
 * It may or may not be worth mentioning the game was a finalist at the Slamdance Guerrilla Games Competition until withdrawn.
 * Given the finicky nature of game refs even on reputable sites, I'd strongly recommend going through and adding WebCite/Archive.org archive links to the cite web parameters to ward off WP:LINKROT. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 19:32, 13 March 2011 (UTC)
 * Image issues taken care of, as well as the Slamdance issue. -- Pres N  02:55, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * And have archived everything. -- Pres N  03:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
 * All right, I think it meets all the criteria. I notice that you preserve the stylized title in the reception section when it's in quotes; you'd have to check the MoS on whether you're supposed to, but for clarity you prolly can get away with reformatting them to Flow as a minor typographic change. An excellent article I enjoyed reading. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 15:29, 14 March 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.