Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 20:48, 31 January 2009.

Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel

 * Nominator(s): Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because... I think it meets all the requirements at WP:FA?. Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel is a radio show from the 1930s, starring Groucho and Chico Marx. I picked a book up about it in a thrift store and wrote this article. I've had a lot of fun writing and researching it, and I think it's one my better ones.

There is one thing I'm a bit bothered about, and that's that I can't think of a suitable Lede image for the infobox. I can't find any pictures of them performing the radio show on stage, no Esso posters from the period, or anything. Any suggestions for one would be welcome, and all other concerns brought up will be addressed to the best of my ability. Thank you Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 09:03, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Comments -
 * Sources in the references section should be in alphabetical order
 * On it. Done Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email)


 * What makes http://www.old-time.com/ a reliable source?
 * The New York Times ( and ), Deseret News, and Variety all reference it; PBS   lists it as a teaching resource; Western Connecticut State University , Northeastern State University , and Elon University  lists it as a research resource; and the Library of Congress  uses it. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email)
 * Leaving this one out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm on the fence here. The LoC and the New York Times are the most convincing, but even these mentions are extremely brief and hard to really put into context. Sites that include old-time.com next to Wikipedia or as fodder for high school projects are totally unconvincing. Am I correct in that the only information being used from this site is the ratings? Could this information be sourced to a stronger source? Awadewit (talk) 20:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * References 50 and 51 say the same, but they're books. I added this cite because it's an online reference and this article doesn't use many. Unless the reader has the books much of the information here cannot be verified, and they would have to assume good faith on my part. It can be removed without leaving the statements it's connected to unsourced, but it's doing no harm either. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine with me, then. Awadewit (talk) 03:01, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:55, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you for looking! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 18:21, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Oppose on criterion 3 File:Flywheel BBC.jpg - This fair use rationale needs a specific purpose of use - the generic template is not enough. See this dispatch on non-free images, particularly the section at the end about writing purposes of use. Awadewit (talk) 18:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Hmm.. There is a specific purpose of use in the template. Fair use policy isn't my strong point, but this cover-art, its purpose and rationale don't look to be much different from other cover-art images used in recently promoted FAs that you commented on, such as File:The Simpsons Hit and Run cover.png, File:The Simpsons Game XBOX 360 Cover.jpg, and File:UTND.jpg which you said was "sufficient". What would I need to add to make this image alright for this article? Would it be better if I just removed it? Thanks, Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 18:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Those images were all being used in infoboxes - that is a different kettle of fish. Did you read the section of the dispatch that I pointed you to? It offers excellent advice on how to write a good purpose of use. I would only repeat its advice here. Awadewit (talk) 18:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Done? (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=File%3AFlywheel_BBC.jpg&diff=264916247&oldid=260149687) Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 19:05, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 18:42, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're very welcome. Awadewit (talk) 20:24, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The prose struck me as a bit flabby. I've made changes in this edit, but as I found so much so easily I suspect there is more. Prose aside, there are at least two oddities of content.

First, we read ''The CAB rating is the percentage of radio-set owners polled in a given area who are listening to a given show. Thus, if out of 100 radio-set owners polled in the area covered by the broadcast, 20 report that they listened, then the rating which appears in the report is 20. The percentage is not a percentage of the listening audience, but of the radio-set owners interviewed.'' To which my response is: Well yes, of course, but what's your point? I mean, this seems to be in contradistinction to some hypothetical system whereby every potential member of the "listening audience" is polled; but that notion is absurd: you always have sampling. Is the point perhaps that the samples were very small or otherwise unrepresentative?

Secondly, one paragraph starts with the sentence The show was popular with other comedians of the time, however. This isn't sourced. I expect that the rest of the paragraph will substantiate this claim, but it does not; instead, it quotes later writers saying how good the show was.

But the article is interesting and surely can make it to FA.

Incidentally, I changed the description of Zeppo from "straight man" to the more specific "romantic interest". The latter is slightly odd in that the term is usually applied to the girl, but in context here I think it's fine. However, I'm working here from my Original Memory of his rather tedious patches in what are otherwise funny movies. What's particularly worrisome is that I made this change to a sourced assertion and without checking it against the source. Feel free to revert. (I think and hope that all my other changes were innocuous.) Morenoodles (talk) 09:32, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks for copyediting it. Re: the CAB rating; many people won't know what a CAB rating is, and explaining it provides WP:CONTEXT to the reader. Sure, people familiar with US radio may be aware, but not those who click on Specal:Random may not. The references don't say how many people were polled, so do you have a suggestion on how to keep the explanation of what it is, without the other stuff?
 * What does "is "of the2 what's intended?" mean that you added to the dubious tag in the sentence, Sales in Fire Chief Gasoline were also high."?
 * "The show was popular with other comedians of the time, however." -- I think it is sourced by the next two statements. Steve Allen was a vaudeville and radio star, as was George Burns.
 * I'm not sure what to do with the Zeppo thing. The source does say he was the "straight man", but I don't know if that's particularly true.
 * Thanks for taking a look, best, Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)


 * Really, I thought that most people were familiar with the general concept, if not the specifics, of sampling for opinion surveys. No company that wants to know what radio programs the people of Boise listen to and like finds this out by interviewing every resident of Boise. Instead, the company samples. And you can treble-underline that for surveys of Idaho or the US. I see no reason even to mention the sampling here unless somebody knowledgable has credibly claimed that the sampling (or some other aspect of the research) was poor by the standards of the time or is otherwise remarkable.


 * Sorry about the "2" typo in my comment. I intended to ask "is 'of the' what's intended?" To me, "Sales in Fire Chief Gasoline were also high" is odd; "Sales of (the) Fire Chief Gasoline were also high" is idiomatic. However, I'm not completely sure that the latter is what you mean.


 * The article says: The show was popular with other comedians of the time, however. In 1988, Steve Allen said, "when judged in relation to other radio comedy scripts of the early 30's, they hold up very well indeed and are, in fact, superior to the material that was produced for the Eddie Cantor, Rudy Vallee, Joe Penner school. The rapid-fire jokes [...] run the gamut from delightful to embarrassing."[18] George Burns also found it "funny".[55] (My bolding.) The generalization looks to me like a statement about what people thought then, but it's backed up with two statements made half a century later (when memories might have been altered by exposure to Duck Soup and the rest).


 * If the source says "straight man", "straight man" is what it should be. To me, a straight man is somebody who's straightness is a needed prop for the comedy of his partner(s). My memory tells me that in the movies Zeppo was pretty much irrelevant to the comedy: instead, comic bits would be interrupted by boring romantic episodes starring Zeppo and some babe. Meanwhile, the comic foil would be the inimitable Margaret Dumont, who was never boring. But this is not what is written, and also the article on Zeppo shows me that my memory is at least partly wrong.


 * Another gratuitous comment. Is it just me who gags on the term "Old-time radio" (in the very first sentence)? To me it looks like a marketer's term to cash in from the nostalgia demographic. Morenoodles (talk) 11:30, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


 * PS I have fixed the bit about having been popular with other comedians of the time. I have not removed the explanation about sampling, which I believe is completely unnecessary, because the primary author has said that he thinks it's necessary and I therefore fear that my removing it could be construed as disruption or even vandalism. However, I'm certain that it should go, I have explained this on its talk page, and I must regretfully oppose promotion to FA until it is removed, it is substantially altered, or I'm persuaded that I haven't noticed some factor. The article and this FAC page are on my watchlist and I hope to be shown something that will let me strike my "oppose" . Morenoodles (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2009 (UTC) Bit struck out Morenoodles (talk) 05:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * I've moved the old-time radio link out of the first sentence, and have completely removed the Fire Chief gasoline sales sentence and the CAB-rating footnote. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 01:20, 25 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Happy support. Morenoodles (talk) 05:33, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you. It's much appreciated! Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 06:17, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

The References list should be alphabetical, and I don't know how to fix the hanging comma here: Sandy Georgia (Talk) 18:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * —Variety, December 2, 1932, [8] (also, there should not be a space before the ref).
 * All done, thanks Sandy. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 20:22, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Oops -- Sandy, should they be alphabetical by title, author, or something else?
 * By how you've listed them (which is usually author last name, but title when there is no author). Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Comment - I noticed that these recordings are readily available. What do you think about uploading them to Commons, since they are in the PD, and selecting some clips for the article? Awadewit (talk) 04:24, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * See User talk:Awadewit - This is in the works. Awadewit (talk) 21:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Two audio files have been added to the article. The second half of Episode 25, and Episode 26 in its entirety. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 02:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Wonderful! Awadewit (talk) 03:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

 Leaning towards support - I think this is a wonderful article. Do we have any FAs on radio shows? If we do, they have been few and far between. Thanks for writing this! My only question is whether any more information could be added on the content of the series, particularly the characters of Shyster and Flywheel and the plots and themes of the episodes. Awadewit (talk) 21:19, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you! Writing this was an enjoyable experience. As far as I can tell, The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy (radio series) is the only other radio-related Featured article. The plots and themes of each episode are pretty much the same. Flywheel, or occasionally Ravelli, scams someone, but by the end of the episode their plans have come undone or they haven't really gained anything from their actions. Flywheel seems to come across as a lazy and incompetent lawyer and a bullying employer, and Ravelli is the one either being bullied or being blamed when things go wrong. However, this is just my interpretation of the scripts in their printed form. I think I will have missed the intonations, sarcasm, and even some jokes by not listening to the episodes. I wouldn't want to spoil the article by putting something in that could be seen as WP:original research. List of Flywheel, Shyster, and Flywheel episodes has been spun off this article though, which at the moment gives detailed episode summaries of the first 10 episodes. Since the scripts have entered public domain, I am also thinking of adding them to Wikisource. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:56, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Too bad there isn't more information that isn't OR - that's the way the cookie crumbles, though. Changing to support. Awadewit (talk) 03:06, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Support. This was a lot of fun to read - thank you! Karanacs (talk) 16:50, 29 January 2009 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. Thank you for your support. Matthewedwards (talk • contribs • email) 00:52, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.