Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ford Piquette Avenue Plant/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 14:09, 8 May 2018.

Ford Piquette Avenue Plant

 * Nominator(s): Jackdude 101  talk cont 17:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the Ford Piquette Avenue Plant, a former car factory owned by the Ford Motor Company in Detroit, Michigan. From 1904 (when it was built) to 1909, the company used the building to produce several car models, including the Ford Model T, which was created and first made there. It was also the first factory where more than 100 cars were built in one day, and is currently the oldest car factory building in the world open to the public. The factory survives today as a museum and is well-preserved, with almost all of its original structure intact. Pending its promotion, this will be the second FA connected to Detroit (the first was The Supremes), the second FA about a manufacturing facility (the first was New Orleans Mint), and the second FA related to Ford cars (the first was Ramblin' Wreck). Suffice it to say, the subject of car factories is mostly uncharted territory in terms of receiving featured-quality treatment on Wikipedia. I look forward to reading all of your comments, addressing all of your concerns, and successfully completing this review. Jackdude 101 talk cont 17:52, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Images are appropriately licensed. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:40, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Support Edwininlondon
The only thing I can bring to the table is that I once went to Detroit. Nevertheless a few comments on what appears to be a well-researched and fine article:
 * a museum and former factory --> do you see it as a museum first? or 'a former factory and museum'?
 * ✅ I now have it simply stating "former factory", as the fact that it's now a museum is already mentioned elsewhere in the lead.


 * this factory, including the Ford Model T, which was created and first produced there --> To me, most notable is first Model T creation and production, so I would lead with that, and then add that other models were assembled here too. In addition, I think Model T needs a little explanation of significance. I like what you have in the main body: the car credited with starting the mass use of cars in the United States.


 * spur line connected to a Michigan Central Railroad main line behind the building. --> to avoid ambiguity, perhaps this: spur line behind the building, which connected to a Michigan Central Railroad main line.


 * table of cars: it's quite hard to read the notes in such a narrow column. Can we combine a few columns? Eg., make one for Engine and one for Production dates?
 * ✅ The note column in the table was already fixed at 25% of the table width, but I increased it to 33%.


 * The Ford Model AC, produced at the Mack Avenue Plant in 1904, was a Model A that used the engine of a Model C --> do we need this? Were model C engines made at Piquette?
 * ✅ We don't need that bit. Per my research, Ford did not start making its own engines until the Model N.

Edwininlondon (talk) 18:12, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * All of your recommended fixes have been implemented. Jackdude 101  talk cont 21:39, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice work. I support on prose. Edwininlondon (talk) 22:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments by Nick-D
I know next to nothing about automotive history, but found this to be an interesting read. I'm pleased to see FACs on industrial heritage, though the human dimension could be expanded on here. I have the following comments and suggestions:
 * The article is a bit wordy. I've made some example edits to streamline things a bit.
 * I'm fine with these.


 * Given that this was such an early car factory, how did the architects know how to design it? Was its layout based on earlier factories and the lessons learned from them?
 * In the second paragraph of the History section, I noted that the factory was modeled after New England textile mills.


 * "The vast majority of factory tasks were done by men, except for magneto assembly, which was done by women." - how many people worked at the factory?
 * To address that, I added the following sentence to the article: "Due to changes in demand and car model changeover, the number of employees varied constantly, ranging from as low as 300 to as high as 700".
 * Do we also have any figures for the size of the workforce after other companies used the plant? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Only figures for Ford are available. A consistent theme in every piece of source material that I found on this topic is that very heavy emphasis is given to Ford and the current owners, but minor emphasis to the owners in between.


 * What were working conditions like for the automotive workers? (eg, was it cramped, noisy, hot, cold, good for the time, etc). What were safety standards like? Did these change over time as the plant's layout and role evolved and the building aged?
 * In the second paragraph of the History section, note the information about fire safety, especially the fire sprinkler system. This was an unusual thing to add to factories at the time (that is also noted). The factory did have a heating system, but that is characteristic of most buildings of the time, especially in places like Michigan where Winters are long and cold.


 * Given that Ford had a complex relationship with his workers, can anything be said about this? (or relationships at other companies who used the site?)
 * I added the following to the article: "The company did not recognize labor unions at the factory, and each worker was paid a daily rate".
 * Did the workers attempt to unionise? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I added the following: "Ford Motor Company was a member of the Employers’ Association of Detroit, an organization that prevented most of the city's factories from unionizing until the 1930s".


 * "completed components would be brought by hand to the chassis for final assembly.[1]:17–18, 20 Completed cars would be shipped to the company's distributors" - repetition of 'would be'
 * Fixed.


 * The para which begins with "In 1905, Ford Motor Company was the fourth-largest car producer in the United States," seems to break the article's chronology, and lacks a clear purpose. Starting it with a more descriptive sentence would help, but I suspect that things need to be moved around as well.
 * The last date mentioned in the previous paragraph was 1905, so there's no chronology break. The purpose of beginning the paragraph this way is to give context to its final sentence, where it states that Ford was the largest US car producer by 1906.


 * "Plans for the Model T were announced" - to whom? (and was this the blueprints for the car, or the fact that they would be produced?)
 * The source material mentions Ford's dealers, specifically, so that has been added.


 * "a group of factory employees" - which factory?
 * I noted that it was Piquette Avenue Plant employees.


 * "Despite no moving assembly line" - not great grammar
 * This has been changed to "Despite not having a moving assembly line".


 * What was the building used for between 1936 and 2000? The article hints at this, but it's not fully stated.
 * I added more info about 3M from the source material, where it specifically states that it made rubber auto parts and non-adhesive paper tape. What the Cadillac Overall Company made is indicated by the name.
 * Not sure that it is - was it involved in Cadillac cars (if so, do we know what part?) or overalls? - serious question for those of us with little knowledge of this field! Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I noted that it made work clothes, which is mentioned in the source material.


 * Presumably the building's layout and equipment became obsolete at some point?
 * The building itself became obsolete by 1909, when it became clear that it was no longer big enough for Ford's needs, hence their move to the larger factory in Highland Park (this is mentioned in the article already).
 * Yes, but the article then notes it remained in use until around 2000, with the uses of the building becoming seemingly less important over time. Can this be fleshed out? Nick-D (talk) 09:42, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Its importance decreased mainly because Ford left (all of the significant historical milestones that happened at the building occurred during the Ford period), and partly because of its location in an industrial area that became mostly abandoned and blighted over time, which coincided with the overall decline of Detroit. On that note, I added this statement: "The Piquette Avenue Plant still stands in spite of the decline of Detroit, which began in the mid-20th century". In terms of factory equipment, there is no mention in the source material about it becoming obsolete during Ford's occupancy (they were only there for a few years), and the type used by subsequent tenants is not mentioned at all. However, I have already mentioned near the end of the article body that the factory currently contains almost none of its original equipment. This suggests that Ford either brought all of their equipment with them when they moved out (the most likely scenario, in my opinion), or it was replaced later by one of the building's subsequent owners. Also, the fact that the factory's power plant was demolished shortly after 3M took over suggests that the power plant became obsolete at some point.


 * Who runs the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex? Is it funded by Ford, a volunteer group, etc? Nick-D (talk) 05:39, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Model T Automotive Heritage Complex is the name of the organization that runs the Piquette Avenue Plant. I split the first sentence of the Model T Automotive Heritage Complex section and noted that it's a nonprofit organization.

I addressed all of your points. Let me know if this is satisfactory. Jackdude 101 talk cont 13:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I addressed your additional comments. Jackdude 101  talk cont 00:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Support My comments have now been addressed: nice work Nick-D (talk) 06:08, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Comments Support by Cas Liber
A curious topic - will read and jot quibbles below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 20:41, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 * The lead's three paras all start very similarly - try to diversify the initial words. Like this....well, I've done this now. It would be good to combine the second and third paras actually..
 * Thanks for taking a look at the article (it is indeed a peculiar subject). I combined the 2nd and 3rd lead paragraphs like you suggested. Jackdude 101  talk cont 21:41, 22 April 2018 (UTC)


 *  The Bellevue Avenue Plant was utilized until 1908 - why not "The Bellevue Avenue Plant was used (or even "in use") until 1908"?


 * ' '... began to focus the company's efforts ..'' - unnecessary, just "focussed the company's efforts " is fine.


 * ' 'Beginning in January 1907, in a room located on the Piquette Avenue Plant's third floor in the northwest corner, the Ford Model T, the car credited with starting the mass use of cars in the United States, was created'' - either the car was created in Jan 1907 or production of the car began in Jan 1907...suspect that "Beginning" is redundant
 * ✅ The 1907 date refers to the start of its design process, and I changed it to the following: In January 1907, in a room located on the Piquette Avenue Plant's third floor in the northwest corner, the design process began for the Ford Model T, the car credited with starting the mass use of cars in the United States.

Otherwise reads ok and looks comprehensive Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:13, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
 * I made the fixes you recommended. Jackdude 101  talk cont 11:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Source review/spot check by Cas Liber

 * References formatted consistently. web pages archived appropriately. page ranges consistent.
 * Earwig's copyvio tool is ok
 * FN 6 - used once. material cited and faithful to source.
 * FN 17 - used once. material cited and faithful to source.
 * FN 19 - used once. strictly speaking source (which confirms Decline of Detroit) does not state plant still stands but loads of other do. So no big deal.
 * FN 20 - used once. material cited and faithful to source.

ok I'm happy Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 00:05, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Sorry to sound like a broken record, Cas, but can I assume you're signing off on the reliability of the sources too? Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:44, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
 * No problem. Yes. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:58, 29 April 2018 (UTC)

Support by Wehwalt
Support Most interesting. Just a few suggestions.
 * "and its maple floors, supported by square oak beams and posts, cover 67,000 square feet (6,224.5 m2) of floor space.[1]:7[7]" I might cut the last three words.
 * "Completed cars were shipped to the company's distributors and dealers by rail, using a spur line behind the building, which connected to a Michigan Central Railroad main line.[1]:5, 12 " I might get rid of the final comma
 * "Due to changes in demand and car model changeover," I'm not sure I like the double use of "change-" here. Maybe "Due to variation in demand and changes in car model,
 * "The company paid each worker a daily rate and did not recognize labor unions at the factory.[1]:21" I'm not sure I understand the need for the first part of the sentence. Of course the workers got paid; this seems unnecessary to mention, unless there's some other reason for it.
 * "Also in 1926, the equipment in both of the Piquette Avenue Plant's elevators was replaced.[1]:7 " I might sub "machinery for" for "equipment in"
 * "The openings that previously allowed direct access on the second and third floors between the two buildings are now sealed.[1]:5 " suggest reversing the order of "on the second and third floors" and "between the two buildings"
 * "The Piquette Avenue Plant is the oldest, purpose-built automotive factory building open to the public.[7][23][24]" I might ditch the comma.
 * "and is one of the oldest-surviving examples of that car model.[28]" I'm not sure the hyphen is needed.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:56, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Wehwalt. I made all the changes you suggested. Jackdude 101  talk cont 23:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Nominator comments
This nomination has four supports, and has completed reviews for images, prose, and sources. I believe it's ready for promotion. Jackdude 101 talk cont 23:26, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:09, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.