Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fountain of Time/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by SandyGeorgia 03:48, 4 April 2009.

Fountain of Time

 * Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because of my A-Class WP:MILHIST articles, this passed in the shortest amount of time. Thus, it is probably interesting or something. It is the only high quality level WP article that I know of that is about a memorial to peace. In order to answer a question from my GA reviewer, I got two books from the library. I was unable to answer the question, but did end up adding 25% more text to the article and I found several old Library of Congress photos in the mean time.

I am quite sure the image guys will have instructions in regard to what is kept in the article. I was going to move out the gallery and then the GA reviewer said he felt they added to the article, but needed better captioning. I am thinking that the image reviewers might want them moved out so I have not worked on that. I am hoping that none of the images other than the gallery are contentious and am willing to make any changes to the gallery or remove it entirely. TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:07, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WRT, the image gallery, I should note that because of the restoration, this might be a rare case where it is appropriate to have one.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

There remains one dab (Open house) that I am not sure how to resolve. It describes what I mean in the opening sentence and then lists another dozen possible uses for the term.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:11, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Query Hi Tony, interesting topic "Despite all the restoration that has been completed, supporters of Time continue to pursue resources for additional lighting," what has the lighting to do with restoration?  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  22:13, 23 March 2009 (UTC) Also "Time is one of the few outdoor sculptures that has been made of these types of materials since the 1930s" might need rephrasing if the opening date of 1922 is correct.  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  22:41, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Many public sculptures get vandalized in the Chicago Park District and it probably has something to do with lessening vandalism.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 02:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * This is a big public sculpture and I think the article could benefit from a bit about the vistas that incorporate it (which might be a way to move some gallery pictures into the article). How much of the Park around it is designed to show off this monument, and which bits are meant to be seen up close and which from a distance?  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  15:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you working from a source that I should know about. I have not seen a secondary source with the information that you are referring to.  Alternatively, are you suggesting that I interpret the photos that we have to make the analysis that you suggest?  Isn't this WP:OR?  I am really not sure what you are suggesting.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:57, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Hi Tony, well if the sources don't cover it then we can't but thanks for checking. I'm a bit surprised that they don't as its a frequent topic for describing major sculpture near me (mind you I live near the end of a mile long avenue lined with several rows of trees that leads up to one statue, so I may have a non global perspective on this).  Ϣere Spiel  Chequers  16:41, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have dug up the most detailed report of the park I can find (Its National Register of Historic Places Registration Form). I see nothing about vistas for the sculpture.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:24, 1 April 2009 (UTC)


 * Technical Review
 * Fix the disambiguation links, as checked with the links checker tool in the toolbox.
 * I have added text to a complement the linked dab page, but have left it linked.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:40, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That's fine.--Best,  ₮ RU  C Ө   02:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added one more dab. Let me know if you feel it is adequately explained.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't know what you mean by "adequately explained", the 2 dabs need to be disambiguated, if thats what you mean.--Best,  ₮ RU  C Ө   22:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have attempted to clarify the context of the other dab use.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:33, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Oh, it looks fine to me.--Best,  ₮ RU  C Ө   14:48, 28 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ref formatting (WP:REFTOOLS script) and external links (links checker tool) check out fine.--Best,  ₮ RU  C Ө   01:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Is anyone else having problems with the newsbank refs. They got reformatted with these two edits. They are no longer working on my machine even though they did when I first checked out what had happened.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:25, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The links were not working earlier, but they are working now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 03:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose I'm opposing because I think the prose is not FA quality, and there's some MOS issues to be addressed (eg. page # ranges in refs need endashes). I've listed some examples below, but stopped reading after the Installation section. Sasata (talk) 08:02, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Support The prose has been much improved, and I'm switching to support now. I'll take Tony's word about the lead citation issue, but am not striking it out, as I'd still like to hear an MOS expert's opinion about it. Sasata (talk) 21:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Replied below: I am unaware of any reasoning, logic, policy or guideline to support this notion of fully cited or fully uncited leads. See WP:LEAD: leads are summaries.  Surprising or controviersial info, or direct quotes, need to be cited.  Other information summarized from the article doesn't always need to be cited; common sense applies.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:24, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have responded below with the reasoning as it had been taught to me with an explanation of why I don't have specific policy or guidelines to point to.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:08, 31 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I got the endashes. I can always use some MOS assistance and advice.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:25, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I see your point about some prose issues. The article seems to have gotten the attention of several copyeditors.  I hope they continue to help me clean up the quality research here.  I also would appreciate any continuing feedback you might have.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Certainly. And if you feel so inclined, I have a FAC further down the page that would love some comments :) Sasata (talk) 09:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

←What I am saying is that in my experience with GA, FA and FL reviews on WP, which is fairly extensive, this subject has come up dozens of times. I have explained that in my early days they taught me to only do fully-cited or fully-uncited WP:LEADs. Every time that explanation has been accepted. I have not reviewed policy to give the explaination. Thus, I don't know where it is. What we need is an expert on current MOS guidelines to confirm the currently prevailing policy.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:41, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Is it appropriate to have so many (I counted 19) citations in the lede?
 * I don't think the Lead is presenting anything more than the summary of the article and thus the text is good, IMO. Are there facts that you would like to see the citations removed from?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:17, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Assuming that everything that's cited in the lead is also cited in the main body of text, then I would take out the citations for anything that isn't contentious. For example, its location, when it started running water and its year of dedication, and the fact it underwent repairs; I doubt if any of that is likely to be challenged. The rest can probably stay. Sasata (talk) 09:39, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you aware of the two citation conventions for the WP:LEAD? Either a LEAD can be fully cited or fully uncited. Both conventions are common and fully acceptable.  What is unaccepatable is a partially cited LEAD where some facts are cited and some are not.  In this case, I attempt to do a fullly cited form.  Your suggestion is against convention.  Either you want the citations with the main body text only or also as presented in the lead.  There is no halfway.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I was not at all aware of the two citation conventions. I was working off LEADCITE; could you point out the location of a description of these alternate lead citation conventions? Thanks Sasata (talk) 16:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * There is no clear governing text where you point. Policies change and I am going by interpretations, that prevailed in 2007 and 2008.  I have been asked about citing WP:LEADs several times by reviewers and given this explanation.  I have never been told it is wrong.  I believe it to still be the prevailing sentiment that editors agree that leads must be either fully cited or uncited.  I do not have an MOS text to point to.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:56, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * So what you're saying is that there is a policy/convention for citing the lead that directly contradicts what's currently suggested in the MOS, yet I can't read about it because it's unwritten? Am I being punked? :) Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Agreed. Sasata (talk) 21:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I am not aware of any convention, reason, guideline or policy to support the notion that leads should be either fully cited or fully uncited; as far as I know, this is simply incorrect. Information about citations in leads is at LEAD.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:16, 30 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I do not know guidelines or policy. Generally, I spend my time adding encyclopedic content. I only learn policy through MOS tussles about my work.  In terms, of convention it seems to have been longstanding and reasons are pretty clear.  Suppose you have two fully cited paragraphs in a LEAD and someone plops a third uncited paragraph that further summarizes the article it looks bad.  Similarly, if you have an uncited paragraph or two and someone contributes a fully cited one, it looks just as bad. Citing half the claims in the lead as necessary and the other half as unnecessary begs the question of why should the uncited half be cited in the main body either.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:06, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

*"Time had to undergo several restorations due to the elements" What elements? I think this is a too-informal way to say "weathering"
 * I don't think weathering is such a good word, but I have reworded.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:20, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

*"Originally conceived in granite,[14] Time had another plan that called for it to be chiseled out of Georgia marble..." Anthropomorphizing the sculpture
 * Good catch.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 08:30, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

*"... a Bridge of Arts at Woodlawn Avenue would have been more elaborate than a Bridge of Religion at the intersection of Ellis Avenue and a Bridge of Science at Madison Avenue." I'm confused about the relevance of the elaborateness of these bridges; were these bridges even made?
 * removed the extra detail.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

*"...Taft began lobbying for a grand Midway beautification plan in 1908 immediately after winning the first commission from the Ferguson Fund to create the Fountain of the Great Lakes, ..." This clause in the middle of a longer sentence is dificult to follow and should be broken up into something more digestible.
 * I have edited the text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:54, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

*"Two surviving elements stand outside the entrance to the Main Library and two others are at the south side of Foellinger Auditorium." Confusing - there are four "elements" in total, two are not surviving, but two are? What's the distinction between the surviving and non-surviving elements?
 * I have rephrased for clarity. Keep in mind we have a photo showing that there were about a dozen elements originally planned.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:58, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

*"...was delayed by Taft's World War I service in France with the Y.M.C.A.," Sorry, but I don't know enough about history to make a logical connection between war service and the YMCA
 * Some basic info is here on WP at Y.M.C.A.. None of the texts I used elaborated on his service and this is not an article about his service.  This is not even a bio article on the sculptor.  I think it is sufficient to note here that the reason it was two years behind schedule was that he served in WWI with the Y.M.C.A. and leave it at that.  Does that seem reasonable?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:03, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Yes. Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

*"However, Taft and his Chicago school of sculpture..." What school was this? (Sorry if I seem deliberately disingenuous, but that's the question that intuitively pops to mind when I read that sentence)
 * I believe I should be linking to Chicago school or something similar. No Chicago school of sculpture really became prominent like the other smentioned on the page.  Let me look into this.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:28, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have amended the text and added a reference.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Another notable sculpture nearby is Henry Moore's National Historic Landmark, National Register of Historic Places-listed, Chicago Landmark Nuclear Energy, which is located..." Jarring constructing construction, does not flow smoothly.
 * I don't understand your point.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:11, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Sorry, mistyped that word. I just meant the sentence seems run-on. Try reading it out loud. Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:21, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * I tweaked the sentence a bit to remove the redudant "Chicago Landmark (we know it's in Chicago, it's already stated that it's a landmark. Sasata (talk) 21:19, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

*"Formerly, The Midway Plaisance, Jackson Park and..." Does the "The" really need to be capitalized?
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:06, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

This is my best guess. I have seen this problem with other sculptures such as the near by Nuclear Energy (Henry Moore sculpture). I have also had articles where I was able to get specific dimensions for separate parts such as Crown Fountain where I was able to get dimensions for the reflecting pool and the physical sculpture separately. Here separate measures do not present themselves in the sources.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:12, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "There is little agreement on the dimensions of Time, with various sources describing it at 102 to 127 feet (31.1 to 38.7 m) long.[10][3][12] One of the few precise estimates describes it as 126 feet 10 inches (38.7 m) long, 23 feet 6 inches (7.2 m) wide and 24 feet (7.3 m) tall.[2]" Why is there little agreement on something which can be measured with a tape measure? What makes the latter measurement more precise?
 * I suppose that there are at least four or five ways to measure the width:
 * The width of the reflecting pool, which probably could be measured by the width of the water (interior width) and the width of its physical structure (exterior width)
 * The width of the base of its figures
 * The width of the sculpting of the figures
 * The width of the ground upon which it is laid.
 * Suppose there is a three foot-wide ring of grass around the sculpture which is considered Fountain land.
 * Suppose that there is an official plot of land that contains the fountain that the Cook County assessors office might describe as a parcel or something.


 * Perhaps it should be mentioned that the reason for the disparate measurements for various sources may be because they don't specify the boundaries used? Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "The waters began running for the first time in the completed sculpture..." Why is waters plural?
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:01, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * *It's still plural. Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I had fixed it in the WP:LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:05, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Charles Hutchinson, President of the B.F. Ferguson Trust; John Barton Payne, President of the South Park Board, also spoke." Not a proper sentence.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:00, 25 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Charles Hutchinson, President of the B.F. Ferguson Trust. John Barton Payne, President of the South Park Board, also spoke." Nope :) Sasata (talk) 08:42, 26 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:44, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Continuing review: (Starting from "Design" section)


 * suggest delinking Washington, DC (doesn't help reader understand article)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "John Early of Washington, DC determined that by crushing pebbles, he could create a new concrete mixture that was more durable..." How about something like "John Early of Washington, DC determined that by adding crushed pebbles, he could create a new concrete aggregate that was more durable..."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:55, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "The same material was used at Chicago's Fine Arts Building." According to that article, the building was built in 1884–5 and remodeled in 1898 (i.e., many years prior to when this article claims the material was first used.)
 * Is it O.K. now?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:15, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Although most of the figures are generic representations,..." of what?
 * Basically, I am trying to say he is not depicting notable known persons. Let me know if it is O.K. now.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:01, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "He is posed with his head bowed.." suggest posed->portrayed
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "...Henry Austin Dobson, [41]"Time..." Spacing needs fixing around citation 41
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Shakespeare's play should be italicized
 * I was not using the play's name, but I have added it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "The sculpture depicts a hooded stationary Father Time..." Why the distinction that FT is stationary?
 * The masses are a procession, while Father Time is stationary.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:35, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "The History of American Sculpture (1903), which is regarded as the first..."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "It was produced in the period following his assignment to design sculptures for William Le Baron Jenney's Horticultural Building when he designed several large-scale public works, including Fountain of the Great Lakes." The sentence seems run-on, please reword, or split into two sentences.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:47, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Designed without expansion joints, Time is one of the few outdoor sculptures that has been made of these types of materials, and few have been created since the 1930s." What types of materials? The pebble/concrete aggregate? Please clarify. What kind of repairs were needed in 1936 (i.e., did the sculpture really deteriorate that much in 14 years?)
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:37, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "Chicago Mayor Richard J. Daley attended a rededication in 1966." So? How does this fact fit in with the previous or next sentence?
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:56, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "...did more harm than good, with techniques..." Suggest removing comma
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 17:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "...but in 1994 it still awaited repair." it -> the sculpture
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "In early 1997, after almost two decades of study," What were they studying? Wasn't the holdup due to lack of funds?
 * Read the source. It does not say funding. It seems to suggest that they were concerned about the formulating the plans explained in the paragraph.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:45, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "..$450,000 on repair that year.[12] [53" extra space b/w cit #'s
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * "The repairs were expected to last about 30–50 years." The way the sentence reads now might be interpreted as meaning the repair process would take that long... needs rewording.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:31, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

"Below are pictures of the Fountain of Time uploaded in August 2004 before restoration."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 18:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

*Reference formatting needs some more tweaking: some books refs (eg. #28, #32) end in periods, some don't; ref 15 has double period after author name; Taft refs do not have "p." while the other book refs do.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:08, 26 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * What makes http://www.waymarking.com/waymarks/WM43T7 a reliable source?
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:48, 25 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I removed the ref.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 14:57, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Strong oppose—Not well-written. MoS breaches in the linking of dictionary terms. In addition, the nominator continues his established practice of fighting against almost all issues raised. This article, by no stretch of the imagination, could be promoted. Is the whole text going to be fixed up? I have provided only random examples. Tony  (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Gawky four-item hyphenated hedgehog: I've commented on this before in your writing, and gone to some lengths to explain how easy it is to avoid. Here we have it right at the opening: "a 126-foot-10-inch (38.7 m) long sculpture by Lorado Taft situated at the western edge of the Midway Plaisance". Here is how you fix it, by simply moving the noun: "a sculpture by Lorado Taft, 126 feet, 10 inches (38.7 m) long, at the western edge of ...". Or choose your own recasting, but no quadruple bypasses, please, especially since the conversion is required in the midddle. Here's another: "20-foot (6.1 m) high robed model of Father Time". Please fix them all. You seem to be hooked on this word "situated", but a statue is a statue, and it just is where you say it is. "Situated" is quite redundant; clunky, actually.
 * Are you against the parameterization in general?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:55, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have no idea what on earth this is, but if it creates ugly ducklings like that, get rid of it. The quadra-hydra-monster stinks. Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * When I ask, I am trying to determine if you are just against the singular format for measures with the convert template. I don't think I left any monsters.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:40, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "was the first work of art made of concrete,[7] and used a new type of molded, reinforced material". The linking of "concrete" is on the boundary of the required relevance test, but since the text is not massively overlinked with dictionary words, it works, I think, and there's some slight chance that a reader might click on it. But is the "material" referred to the concrete? It's unclear.
 * Later, I describe the design as follows: "The sculpture is made of hollow-cast concrete form reinforced with steel". Do you want the design earlier?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 04:57, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't care what you do, it's unsatisfactory at the moment. Do not keep readers hanging with uncertainty: it's bad writing. [I'm gettting sick of arguing.] Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I had thought you wanted this change, but now I think you want to see this one.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 21:56, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "that corrected many of the problems caused by prior restorations." Please remove "prior", since it's pretty hard to correct something that hasn't already occurred.
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "caused by the natural elements such as weather"—what other natural elements are there? Why not just "by exposure to the weather", or something like that?
 * Here is a sentence fragment from the restoration section: "Five workers began repairing the cracks, killing biological growth, removing calcium deposits and pollution-blackened gypsum" I had thought that weather and time (or in the case of this fountain Mother Nature and Father Time) are conjointly considered natural elements.  As such corrosion that occurs over time is considered the result of the natural elements.  Later in the article I describe urban soot and grime as natural elements.  Also, note that WP redirects to (Periodic table), so it is not clear to me that natural elements means weather.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:21, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It is unclear as it is. Specify whatever you mean. What is the full list (you say "such as" ... well, what else?). Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have added urban decay, which pretty much covers the rest of examples in an introductory way that is fit for a WP:LEAD.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:02, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (copied from Talk:Fountain of Time) In the third paragraph there's this sentence: "Time has had to undergo several restorations due to the deterioration and decline caused by the natural elements such as weather and urban decay." This stopped me in my tracks as it makes no sense. How is urban decay a natural element? And how does it directly contribute to the deterioration and decline of the sculpture? I think that what is really meant that is that vandalism increased as its surrounding neighborhood declined. If so, say exactly that, and don't use weasel words like urban decay. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 14:40, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * (copied from Talk:Fountain of Time) I mean grime and soot that have led to biological growths, calcium deposits and pollution blackening that have caused deterioration of the sculpture (according to sources). What is a word to describe that?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 15:20, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * How about urban elements?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:32, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Neither urban decay (which typically means economic decline of a neighborhood or city) nor urban elements (citizens or parts of a city?) make sense. I'd settle for urban pollution, acid rain, etc. since you're talking about pollution-caused effects. Sturmvogel 66 (talk) 04:29, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "During the late 1990s and first few years of the 21st century"—"the" is missing.
 * I have made the correction. However, I'm surprised that you, the word miser, makes this correction. If I said "during the 1980s and 1990s," would that also be considered incorrect?--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:35, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * That is close to a personal attack. No, in your example, "the" is carried through by ellipsis. To repeat "the" there would be clumsy. But the ellipsis doesn't work for "first few years of ...", because the items are not parallel (decades).  Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * No attack meant. I thought you took pride in being miserly in terms of word use.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:07, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * "Despite all the restoration that has been completed, supporters of Time continue to pursue resources for additional lighting, and the National Trust for Historic Preservation has nominated it for further funding." How does one "pursue resources"? It's not English. The National Trust nomination was despite the restoration? The clauses in this sentence need to be rearranged so they're unambiguous in relation to each other.
 * To the best of my understanding pursue is used grammatically and in a common way. At m-w.com, the second of six meanings for pursue is to "employ measures to obtain". That is the meaning meant herein.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 05:49, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It does not work; it is unidiomatic. It is vague. "pursue resources"? Google it and present the evidence if you're too lazy to find an acceptable word. Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Do you mind if I substitute the websters dictionary meaning "employ measures to obtain".--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:23, 2 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Overlinking: "intersection". This is a breach of the guidelines, by any stretch of the imagination. The overlinking is not at the ruinous density I've seen before, but here it is: "lagoon", "canal", etc. Just why you'd want to click on a link to "World War I" from this article is beyond me. Let the important links show up, please.
 * Mea culpa; during GA review, I asked that intersection be wikilinked. As a Brit, I felt the term sufficiently obscure to warrant a wikilink for clarification. The word is not common in the UK.  Chzz  ►  06:07, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * He beat me to it, but here it is for intersection.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * As far as WWI goes, this article is part of the WP:MILHIST showcase.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:24, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * WRT lagoon and canal, this article borders on having the WikiProject_Urban_studies_and_planning tag. As such I find those relevant linkable terms. Clearly, there is substantive text on planning in the article as it relates to the Midway beautification. Please ponder the planning issue and then reconsider your thoughts on linking lagoon and canal.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:46, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * You find them "linkable" because it "borders" on some WIkiProject? That is not the test of whether the link deepens the reader's meaning. This is overlinking—dictionary terms—and is clearly a breach of the style guides. Tony   (talk)  15:57, 1 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Allow me to clarify. The article has a lot of encyclopedic information related to urban planning and beautification.  Thus, readers with urban planning interests may find this article worth reading.  For those readers lagoons and canals are not tangential terms.  They are central to the proposed urban beautification plan.  I feel in this context linking the terms is O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 22:39, 2 April 2009 (UTC)


 * "The finished portions of Fountain of Creation are considered Taft's final work, and were given to University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign, his alma mater." What does "are considered" add? If it is necessary to inject a little uncertainty, make it clear why. This comes over as coy.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 06:50, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * "The figures in the sculpture were planned to depict the Greek legend of the repopulation of earth after the great flood." They were planned to, but didn't end up doing this? That is the unfortunate tinge of meaning. I had to read it twice and think before realising that you probably didn't intend this nuance. Not good. Same for "possible themes"; I have to work hard to fathom whether these bit the dust or were borne out. Planning versus constructed features is blurred in a number of sentences.
 * I am hoping I addressed your concerns with my recent edits.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 07:02, 31 March 2009 (UTC)
 * " Two surviving elements stand outside the entrance to the Main Library and two other surviving elements are at the south side of Foellinger Auditorium.[23] The four figures range in height from"—Can we avoid the straight repetition of "surviving elements"? Can we know first that there are four, and then ... "Two are ..., and two are ..."?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 09:28, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

I've not read more than the lead and some of the first section. It all needs treatment. On the other hand, it has the makings of an FA, and I can see the effort you've put into this (and the good results). But it can't be promoted until the writing is up to scratch. Please bring in someone else to sift through the text. You have a lot of valuable things to say, but you don't do justice to your knowledge without collaboration with a skilled writer. Tony  (talk)  13:02, 30 March 2009 (UTC)


 * We've covered this hyphenation issue many times on TTT's previous FACs, so shouldn't still be finding these kinds of errors in the first line of the article. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:28, 30 March 2009 (UTC)

Oppose This needs a thorough copyedit. Minor issues include a quote in italics; a poem title in italics; a publication title in plain text; Jstor listed as a publisher; and National Trust and American Express listed in italics. Conversion figures are needed for historical monetary values. There are flow problems (there is no connection between these sentences: "The sculpture had a rededication in 1966. However, early repair crews often did more harm than good with techniques such as sandblasting and patching cracks with rigid materials.") and logic problems (all NHLs are listed on the NRHP, so why "Time is located a few blocks from Taft's studio, the National Historic Landmark, National Register of Historic Places-listed, Chicago Landmark Lorado Taft Midway Studios, which is located at 60th Street and Ingleside Avenue. Another notable sculpture nearby is Henry Moore's National Historic Landmark Nuclear Energy, listed with the National Register of Historic Places."?). The Chicago Tribune is arguably not a reliable source for the massive assertion that this piece is "the first work of art made of concrete", later restated as "the first finished art piece to be made of any type of concrete". The main issue, however, is that there are grammar and word choice problems throughout. Maralia (talk) 15:26, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I am unable to find the publication title in plain text.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Got it.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:09, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * I have never heard of the historical monetary value conversion requirement and don't believe it exists. I see nothing at WP:$.  There are about a dozen different years in which dollars are used.  In addition, a historical monetary value conversion requires constant updating.  Any policy on dollar conversion would require reconversion every time a new inflation index number arises.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 16:21, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The publication title in plain text is in "Some Tribune critics". RE the monetary conversion issue, I don't have time to dig for policy at the moment, so let's just use a little logic: the average reader likely has no point of reference for the equivalent modern value of early 20th-century dollar figures. FAs have long offered such conversion by giving a modern value as of a specific year; Inflation even offers a country-specific conversion that automatically updates with the CPI. The "$30,000 per year for five years" figure for Taft's initial plan is (very roughly) $ in modern terms—surely more meaningful to readers. Maralia (talk) 17:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)
 * Inflation is an interesting template. Feel free to tweak or advise on stylistics of use. Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (t/c/bio/WP:CHICAGO/WP:LOTM) 19:06, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Sandy Georgia (Talk) 03:50, 4 April 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.