Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fred Keenor/archive1

Fred Keenor

 * Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

This article is about footballer Fred Keenor. A Welsh International with more than 30 caps, he spent his entire club career with Cardiff City and was captain of the 1927 FA Cup final winning side, the only team from outside England to lift the trophy. I received some excellent points at a previous peer review but was unable to attract much attention when I nominated it the first time. Hopefully this time will prove more fruitful. I look forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 19:13, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Support from Eric Corbett
I remember Fred from the peer review I think it must have been. I look forward to reading about him again, and being able to support this article's promotion. Eric  Corbett  19:21, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Having now read through this article again I believe that it meets the FA criteria. One of the things I admire about Fred is that although he wasn't a terribly gifted footballer, he made up for his shortcomings with grit and determination. Thanks to Kosack for writing this. Eric  Corbett  12:21, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Support from Cas Liber
I read this at Peer Review, and it got a good going-over from Eric and TRM. Has been tightened nicely and I think we're there comprehensiveness and prose-wise Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:48, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton
While carrying out a sources review, I read the "Personal life" section and found it somewhat confusing. The second paragraph says: "Following his retirement from football, he found it difficult to find work due to his ill-health and it became increasingly hard to earn money", but this is contradicted later, by "After leaving football, Keenor worked as a builder's labourer for many years, waking up in the early hours ... " etc. Also, as few dates are provided, there is no indication as to when the various events described happened, e.g. the fundraising efforts, the long spell in hospital, the move to Lamberhurst, the corner shop, the work in the petrol refinery, joining and leaving the Territorials, etc. They can't, surely, all have happened in the short period between Keenor's retirement from football in February 1937 and the outbreak of war in September 1939? The next date we have is for the move to Cardiff, in 1958, so I imagine that at least some of these events relate to the postwar period. We need some chronological clarity covering the years between 1937 and 1958.

I will post a sources review shortly. Although I haven't been generally checking prose, I think "found it difficult to find" is perhaps a little clumsy. Also, I suggest the sentence "He returned to Cardiff with his wife in 1958, working as a store man in the building department of Cardiff Corporation" needs rephrasing: "where he worked as" rather than "working as", and "store man" is an odd description – perhaps one word, or use the term given in the link. Do we know how long this employment lasted, given that he was 64 in 1958? The next date we have is 1967. Brianboulton (talk) 15:56, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * He initially found it hard to work but, as the text states, he moved to Lamberhurst to recuperate so he eventually did return to some form of health. I've added a bit more info now, the shopkeeper spell coincided with his time at Tunbridge Wells who were an amateur side so this actually starts in 1935. The terrortorials would have been part-time I imagine so he would of been able to continue working alongside his role there and there is a leaving date from the terrortorials in June 1939. The petrol refinery may have been post-war as the source I have states in a sort of summary section that begins "While he lived in the area" and goes on to say "In later years he would also find work in a petrol refinery in nearby Hove". This is a bit ambigious but, given the close time frame you mention, perhaps this could be more likely post-war and could be moved further down? Kosack (talk) 07:48, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I appreciate what you've done, but still find parts of this section problematic. I think part of the problem lies with the phrase "Following his retirement from professional football",  which I took to mean after his spells in non-league football as player-manager with Oswestry and Tunbridge Wells, but it seems that you mean after his retirement from league football; it might be as well to clarify this.  There's also the question of what happened to him after the war until 1958, when he returned to Cardiff – are there no details covering this period? And, as I pointed out earlier, he was 64 in 1958, yet now we learn that after working as a storeman for Cardiff Corporation, he "worked as a builder's labourer for several years, waking up in the early hours each morning to catch a lift in a newspaper delivery van before walking the remaining five miles to the site". Blimey, how old was the poor chap to still be doing heavy work on a building site? Especially with his history of diabetes. Maybe the sources are muddled or unclear, but it would be nice if we could have a little more clarity on some of these points. Brianboulton (talk) 16:14, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I guessed that the player-manager spells were causing some confusion which is why I added "professional" in after this to try and signify that. I've added in a further refinement to hopefully make it clearer. Unfortunately, details of his post-war life are rather scarce, other than basic job descriptions, there's not much information available. Even his biography only has a handful of pages between the war and his death. Kosack (talk) 18:59, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've managed to dig out the source for the labourer's role and it seems I did get the information the wrong way round. It seems it was the space between wartime and his return to Cardiff, so I've amended the text there. Kosack (talk) 19:17, 15 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Yes, it makes a lot more sense now. Brianboulton (talk) 21:35, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Sources review

 * Verification: I carried out a number of spotchecks on the sources. Mostly, OK, just a few issues:
 * Ref 12a: "He joined Cardiff City as the club was looking to establish itself as a professional football team having joined the newly formed Second Division of the Southern Football League two years earlier". Where is this information given in the source?
 * "the club made the move to professionalism inevitable, and Cardiff City was admitted to the Second Division of the Southern League in 1910". I can add further sourcing if required. Kosack (talk) 06:36, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 50: this sources says "it is not known if Keenor himself asked for a move", which contradicts what you have in the article: "he handed in a transfer request"
 * Good spot, I'm not sure why they say that because I believe it's widely known he asked for it. I've added two sources that specifically support him asking for it. Kosack (talk) 07:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 85: What in the source supports the statement in the article: "After returning from his war service, Keenor met Muriel Mary Griffiths"?
 * Ref 84 supports everything apart from her middle name, which ref 85 contains. Kosack (talk) 05:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Links:
 * Ref 41: link returns "page not found"
 * As does ref 42
 * Cardiff City moved their website to a new format last week and this appears to have wiped the links out. Recovered them by archiving now. Kosack (talk) 05:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 67 goes to a different page
 * Removed. The following ref covers the information anyway. Kosack (talk) 05:33, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Other links to sources are working correctly


 * Formats
 * Ref 10 requires page number
 * Done, I've added it in the bibliography now because I've used it in more than one location now. Kosack (talk) 07:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 19: something odd about the page range - Fixed
 * Ref 55 requires subscription template
 * The ref already uses the url-access parameter and returns an error message if I include subscription as well. Kosack (talk) 05:55, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 37: page references required
 * I don't actually possess this source, it was already included on the page before I started working on it. I think I could cover the information with my own sources if that would be preferable? Kosack (talk) 06:52, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Ref 75: You should use the title given in the source - Done
 * Ref 81: you could add page no (174) which would help if the available preview changes - Done
 * Stick to one format for 13-digit ISBNs (compare e.g 35, 37 with 81). Likewise with the 10-digit version – compare in the bibliography Davis & Garland, Grandin, with Lloyd and Shepherd - Done
 * In the bibliography, for Johnes you should include volume and issue nos (17, 1 according to the item description) - Done
 * Be consistent in the inclusion or omission of publisher locations -Added


 * Quality/reliability
 * Ref 47: facupfinals.co.uk: what makes this a high quality reliable source? - Removed

Brianboulton (talk) 17:49, 9 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Thanks for the review, I'll hopefully get through all these over the weekend. Kosack (talk) 18:37, 9 August 2019 (UTC)
 * I've replied to all of the comments above and fixed most of them. One or two, including the comments section, have further comments. Kosack (talk) 08:13, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Image review


 * Don't use fixed px size -Removed


 * Not sure we need two images of the same statue
 * Happy to remove if you think it's necessary, although the article would be quite sparse image-wise without it. Kosack (talk) 07:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)


 * File:Fred_Keenor,_Brentford_FC_footballer,_1919.jpg: is the given source believed to be the first publication of this image? If not, do we know what was? Nikkimaria (talk) 16:20, 10 August 2019 (UTC)
 * As the uploader, hopefully can answer this one. Kosack (talk) 07:01, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

SC
General point: there are eleven uses of "however" in the article, which is probably nine or ten too many. As a rule of thumb they shouldn't normally be at the start of sentence, much less a para, and these can be struck without any loss. Most of the others can also go without problem.


 * IB
 * The two refs for full name and DoB in the IB are not needed – the info is sourced in the body


 * 1914–15 season
 * "at Ninian Park": I think you need to say this is Cardiff's home ground
 * "15 of the Bluebirds' next 18 matches": you've not said anywhere that Cardiff's nickname is the Bluebirds.


 * Return
 * "semifinal" -> semi-final


 * 1926-27
 * "Keenor came close": "he" would be fine (and cut the 'however' too)


 * Personal
 * "Supporters of his former club Cardiff City": we don't need "his former club"

That's my lot: I hope it helps. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 15:20, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for taking a look. I've fixed all of the issues you listed above. I also removed all but one of the howevers as well. Kosack (talk) 18:50, 25 August 2019 (UTC)


 * Support Looks good to me. - SchroCat (talk) 19:15, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  15:19, 29 August 2019 (UTC)