Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frederick Russell Burnham/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:GrahamColm 10:03, 25 September 2013 (UTC).

Frederick Russell Burnham

 * Nominator(s): Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this well-researched article for FA. After considerable labor by Wikipedians over several months to address earlier issues, this former featured article was promoted to GA last month. After reviewing and incorporating recommended changes, I believe the article now satisfies the criteria for FA. I hope you enjoy the article and I look forward to your comments. Thanks! Ctatkinson (talk) 00:01, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Oppose at this time (Disclaimer: I initiated the FAR that removed this article's featured status)
 * Multiple formatting errors/inconsistencies in both short cites and bibliography: FN109 is missing page numbers, some books include locations while others don't
 * All books now include locations. FN109, The Days of My Life Volume II, is at Project Gutenberg Australia in text-only format without page numbers, so I've referenced the chapter. Ctatkinson (talk) 18:19, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you, but there are still inconsistencies: for example, whether page ranges are abbreviated, some missing info (ex date for Carr in Bibliography), etc
 * Someone ran a bot on the article a couple of days ago and I see it introduced a few small errors in the references.  Carr was one of those, and I've just fixed it.  I'll have this corrected this weekend.  Thanks for letting me know.Ctatkinson (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not done. Further examples include: no citations to Britt; References section is misordered (it's mostly alphabetical, but then I see Montgomery before Hough?); inconsistent in whether states are spelled out or abbreviated; some hyphens rather than endashes in page ranges; etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * A list of sources is useful to the reader, so I've added a new ref for Britt to the article even though it is a bit redundant. I've moved Montgomery to its alpha location, and I've spelled out the states.  I've been through the hyphens several times, as have other editors, but I can't locate any new issues.  Is there a tool you use to check hyphens, or can you show any examples in the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Significant WP:MOS cleanup needed in the article: hyphens/dashes, repeated links, etc
 * Inconsistencies have now been addressed. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Some have, but others have not: for example "3 year old ...12-year old", Scouting in Arizona is linked twice in as many sentences, etc
 * Done. Thanks.Ctatkinson (talk) 13:09, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Not done. Further examples include MOS:ITALICS, spaced emdashes and other issues wrt MOS:DASH, etc. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Italics issues have been addressed. Question on dash posed in the above issue.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Some material in the article is unsourced - for example, "he and Blanche settled down to tend to an orange grove in Pasadena, California, but within a year he was back prospecting and scouting"
 * Added reference. Ctatkinson (talk) 18:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * There you have, but that was only an example - the paragraph about Russell, for example, is still unsourced. Please check thoroughly.
 * The paragraph about his grandson Russell is cited. I'll check the article elsewhere to see if I can uncover what you mean, or please provide more detail if you can.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Found Charles Edward Russell (cousin) and added reference.  Additional references added elsewhere to eliminate ambiguity. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:48, 12 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Other material is not supported by the cited source. For example, "Burnham and Armstrong waited until Mlimo entered the cave and started his dance of immunity, at which point Burnham shot Mlimo just below the heart" is cited to this source, which says that they tried to capture him alive and then killed him (and doesn't specify how)
 * Added more detailed reference from van wyk. Ctatkinson (talk) 19:01, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Which is fine for that instance, but that was again only an example. A quick check finds another, "Also buried at Three Rivers cemetery...", unsupported by the cited source.
 * Done. The newspaper ref already named the family plot, so I've added a reference from Lott with more details of the individuals buried.
 * Okay, again, only an example. Another is that this source does not seem to support "Burnham was put in charge of both the general organization and recruitment from the Southwest". At this point, a thorough check of the article is needed. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. The NYT article uses the term: Western. Southwest is an imperfect substitute; however, Western U.S. is already used in this same sentence. It would be redundant to state this same geographical reference again, so deleting from the Southwest seems like the best option. I've checked again and I don't see other issues, but point out anything you believe we may have missed. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Some of the phrasing used is not neutral or has an inappropriate tone - ex. "Ever the soldier of fortune..." Nikkimaria (talk) 14:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Have revised it to: As a soldier of fortune.Ctatkinson (talk)
 * Doesn't fix the problem, and isn't the only instance.
 * Davis wrote a bio on Burnham for his book Real Soldiers of Fortune, and soldier of fortune is how he describes Burnham. The term is synonymous with mercenary. Does this now make sense, or can you clarify your concern? Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I know what the term means, but the description outside of direct quotes is not a neutral one - although not specifically mentioned there, compare WP:W2W. Furthermore, this was only an example of neutrality/tone issues - others, if it would help, include "he struck it rich" and "it was said that he could read the face of nature as easily as most could read their morning newspaper" (the latter could be made a direct quote if applicable). Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Added quotes and ref to fix the soldier of fortune issue. Substituted "struck it rick" with "found great affluence". Deleted to the unnecessary analogy about the newspaper.


 * On another look, finding more problems, including a dead link here and some instances of close paraphrasing (ex "His expeditions in Rhodesia were so important that the Royal Geographical Society elected him a Fellow" vs "His expedition was so important that the Royal Geographic Society elected him a  Fellow").
 * The URL to minernews went dead during the FAC. I'll need to substitute. Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. I added the archived link to the minernews article metadata, and simplified the text: After this expedition he was elected a fellow of the Royal Geographical Society.Ctatkinson (talk) 16:18, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

At this point, I would suggest withdrawal to allow time for a thorough check and cleanup of the article. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)
 * We have addressed the far more challenging issues you raised in the earlier FAR, and I think it would be most unfortunate to withdraw this outstanding former FA based on the few examples you have raised in this FAC. With little delay and only minor edits I speedily addressed the concerns you have identified.  If you have new issues, I would be glad to take a look at those as well and I will continue to comment / address without delay.Ctatkinson (talk) 15:25, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've addressed all of the issues noted above. If you have still have any concerns, let me know. Thanks. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Have you pinged Nikki lately to see how she feels about the nom? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:46, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Nikkimaria doesn't seem to be checking here, so I've left another message on her talk page. Did you have any comments on the article? Ctatkinson (talk) 12:03, 31 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've withdrawn my suggestion for withdrawal, but I'm still finding more issues with this article. I haven't rechecked paraphrasing issues, but while reviewing I also found some prose issues, for example "always careful to keep a rifle within arms length". Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I've substituted with: she always kept a rifle nearby.Ctatkinson (talk) 03:10, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

The reviewer's opposed statement is now more than a month old. I have promptly addressed all of the actionable objections raised by the reviewer; however, this reviewer does not return regularly to check whether their objection has been addressed. Without clarifying and actionable feedback, I don't know of any action I can take to address this reviewer's objection. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:52, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Hello Ctatkinson. The problem with this review is that you address the specific examples I point out very promptly, but have not addressed the issues they exemplify. I can return time and again to give you more examples, but "The article has X problem as shown by Y instance" is not adequately solved by "I have fixed Y instance", because it misses instances ABCDE et al of X. So there are still problems with references, there are still issues with tone, etc, and my oppose still stands. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:16, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * @User:Nikkimaria: If you see continued problems, please keep listing the specific examples so they can be fixed. Either you'll run out of them and the article will be good, or they will remain not fixed and will be a valid reason to oppose. Just talking about generalities is not very helpful, I am afraid. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)

Support: All issued addressed. Montanabw (talk) 22:10, 19 August 2013 (UTC) Reviewing: An initial wikignoming glance raised the following minor issues for me:
 * 1) the footnotes/bibliography have duplications with the "Works/Biographies" sections.  The layout is also a bit atypical.  My recommendation is that the works actually WRITTEN by Burnham be moved above the references into the article text and specifically identified as such. All remaining works/biographies not used in the footnotes/bibliography should be consolidated into (in my opinion) a "further reading" section, though if you wish to break out the biographies from the scholarly papers, that would be fine. DONE  Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 2) I'd like to see the lede bulked out a little more; it's a bit light.  His military service is quite extensive and probably needs a better summary in the lead,  WP:MOS wants a lead to not be too long, but I think three to four more solid paragraphs is easily doable here. DONE  Montanabw (talk) 22:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 3) I popped in "Citation needed" tags where I saw something clearly unsourced.  Hope that's more helpful than "stuff needs sourcing."   Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE
 * 4) Kill all use of "whilst." It's just annoying. "While" is more modern use. (JMO, I suppose if we are talking UK English, it's more OK than in US English, but he is an American)  Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE
 * 5) One of the quote boxes overlaps the article text on my computer.  I noted the location in hidden text within the article.  It's the only one that does this, not sure why.   Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE
 * 6) I stuck some hidden text into the article where I found some issues or had specific questions.  Feel free to remove when fixed or addressed.  Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC) DONE
 * 7) Work on cleaning up the deadlinks, the WayBack machine can sometimes unearth an archived version of a page. DONE  Montanabw (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
 * 8) More stuff: The quote box that begins "Burnham is the sufficient and heroic figure, model and living example, who inspired and gave..." is "sandwiching" text between it and the topographic map on my browser.  That's also a wiki-MOS "crime" you now need to fix.  Maybe you don't need two quote boxes in that section, hmmm...? DONE !!!!


 * Comment on Native American issues: First off, when possible to use tribal affiliation, that is nearly always preferable to just saying "Indian" or "Native American."  In the examples above,  if "Sioux" is as good as you have, then use it, even if you can't narrow it down to the Lakota branch or whomever. Second always capitalize Native American.  "big N" Native is acceptable; sometimes "small n" native is viewed as condescending by some Native people today  (no uniformity on this, but the ones who care are the ones who will comment, the ones who don't care won't get upset either way.)  Montanabw (talk) 03:53, 8 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Native American issues fixed. I believe all the issues have now been addressed. Ctatkinson (talk) 02:18, 10 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your helpful review, Montanabw. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe all are now done. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I supported earlier, so just reiterating that I support this FAC.  Montanabw (talk) 17:04, 10 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, Montanabw. Ctatkinson (talk) 01:51, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Support I've reviewed the article at GA and here, and seen the oppose and the actions taken in response. I believe it meets the criteria.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:08, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

 Comments Support. I made some copyedits and have a few questions before supporting:
 * In "Klondike Gold Rush", it's a bit confusing about how many children he has.
 * Maybe it's just a pet peeve of mine, but I think you could combine footnotes 60 & 61.
 * In "Father of Scouting", you call Burnham "low-key". Really?  His exploits sound fairly dramatic to me.  It makes sense once you read the "Personal life" section, but seems out of place here.
 * The "Oil wealth" paragraph is kind of short. Do you think it could be lengthened or, if not, combined with another section?  Not a deal-breaker, but it does stand out, to my eye. --Coemgenus (talk) 16:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for your insights, Coemgenus. I have worked on the issues you raised and I believe they are now addressed.Ctatkinson (talk) 21:48, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Great, changed to support. Good luck!  --Coemgenus (talk) 01:50, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian
Support. After a lot of work I think this article now meets the FA criteria and should be promoted. —Cliftonian (talk) 06:17, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Image check - all OK (OTRS, PD-age, PD-USGov-USGS). Sources and authors provided. Just 1 request:
 * File:Burnham_nm_11may1941.jpg and File:RodFly.jpg - as most images in this article come from the same source via OTRS ticket #2013061810006694, those should be OK. However, could you get them tagged with OTRS-tags aswell (or alternatively add a publication date)?
 * All other images from the Burnham family have either an OTRS-ticket or additional publication details - OK. GermanJoe (talk) 11:24, 18 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking at the images, GermanJoe. I'll review the two you mentioned. Ctatkinson (talk) 00:29, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * OTRS ticket updated and the photos updated.  Pumpkin Sky   talk  02:17, 19 September 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment. 1) "Film and stage accounts" and "Tributes" are in an unnecessary and MoS-unrecommended bullet point list. Please rewrite to prose. 2) Add Queen's South Africa Medal and British South Africa Company Medal to infobox. 3) The article should respect WP:RED; there are no red links but I see some terms that should have them, i.e. Northern Territories (BSA) Exploration Company, Wa Syndicate or Mlimo. Please consider adding more to encourage creation of new articles. 4) "Assassination of Mlimo" section mentions a sacred cave and a village, can we add their respective names? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 03:32, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your excellent input, Piotrus. I've now addressed items 2 & 3.  For item 4, although none of my sources provide names for the sacred cave or the nearby village, I did come across some additional information on the location -- not many miles from the Mangwe district.  I've added this to the article and the a source reference.  Tomorrow I'll work on item 1. Ctatkinson (talk) 03:50, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe I have now addressed the issues you raised. Thanks again for your help. Ctatkinson (talk) 17:26, 21 September 2013 (UTC)

Closing comments This candidate has been here for a long time, but problems still remain and I will be archiving this in a few minutes. I see a mixture of dashes in the references, a template error with DeGroot, E. B. (July 1944), this odd looking citation Los Angeles Times 1900, p. I15 and inconsistencies in page ranges. These should have been fixed a long time ago. Graham Colm (talk) 07:54, 25 September 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.