Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Freedom of Worship (painting)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 09:27, 12 July 2014.

Freedom of Worship (painting)

 * Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I have notified WP:HUMAN RIGHTS, WP:VISUALARTS, WP:RELIGION, WP:WPMEDIA.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:04, 24 May 2014 (UTC)
 * I have notified the WP:GAC reviewer .--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:23, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

This article is about one of the four paintings in a famous painting series by Norman Rockwell. It has sufficient stand-alone encyclopedic content to merit consideration here. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:34, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Those lead citations aren't required
 * Moved.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:45, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Long quotes like Claridge's should be blockquoted
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:50, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * ReadHowYouWant is a republisher - who was the original publisher of Boyd's book?
 * I don't know where to look. I have tried Amazon, Barnes & Noble, BooksaMillion, and Indiebound.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:28, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * WorldCat is usually a good option - it's Berrett-Koehler. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:48, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Now fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:26, 28 May 2014 (UTC)
 * GBooks links can be truncated after page number
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:18, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Be consistent in whether page ranges are abbreviated or not
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:59, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Compare publisher formatting on FNs1 and 14 and 24. Nikkimaria (talk) 12:23, 25 May 2014 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 25 May 2014 (UTC)


 * Comments from Wehwalt
 * Comments, leaning support. As I think I've mentioned to you, I have a set of the Four Freedoms in a dilapidated War Bonds envelope that has been folded sometime in the past seventy years. I've spent several minutes studying the painting.  The detail on the fingers is ... amazing.  Just saying.  Now to the review.
 * Lede
 * The first sentence could use at least one comma, after "Roosevelt". I might put a second one in, but that would be purely stylistic.  But I think you need one.
 * I added 32nd to make his name an appositive, calling for two commas.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Similarly, I think you need one before "Will Durant".
 * I am not so sure about this one, but I added it.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Background
 * Moving to the opposite pole, the comma before "Four" in the first sentence seems unneeded and out of place. Also the one prior to "Franklin"
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:44, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I think Ariel Durant should be mentioned as co-author of the book series.
 * added.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:49, 5 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm going to pause at this point because you've caused me to check my personal library and I have useful information. Send me an email and I will send you the pages as attachments.  I am traveling later today so I may be slow to actually send them.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:22, 1 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Resuming
 * Background (cont)
 * The final statement in the section needs a source.
 * Reffed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:15, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The statement about Durant lecturing, and the following one, might well be switched in order. Seems more logical.
 * MOved.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:17, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "the series". Make clear we are talking about the paintings, not Durant's books.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:19, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Description
 * I'm not happy about the term "bible-toting" which is a bit pejorative and not really applicable to the situation. Additionally, as one somewhat familiar with Jewish prayer and its rituals, the Bible is not an object of prayer, though customs differ on some elements of prayer within Judaism and I'm less familiar with some.  May I ask, if it is available, what the source says exactly?
 * I am not in possession of any offline sources. I had them checked out from the Chicago Public Library for about 5 or 6 months (renewing 3 week borrowings) until I started to forget to renew them. I may be able to get to the Library in the next week or two or your local Library may have the book.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:25, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I am traveling at present which is why I am so slow to get these done.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Production
 * "all seeking barber services" perhaps "waiting their turn in the barber's chair" or similar, as what you have seems a bit overly formal. I guess we can't say they are all there for a haircut, they might want a shave.
 * Done as suggested.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:42, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "serviced" served?
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:38, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "preppy" This evokes a much-later time period. Preppy as in the stereotypical prep school look?
 * According to Preppy the look is from the 1940s and 1950s. What do you mean by much later?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:48, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I'm thinking of the Preppy Handbook and so forth, that I remember from the early Eighties.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "Rockwell's intended theme was religious tolerance, and it seemed lost in the original composition according to Rockwell" to avoid the repetition, perhaps "Rockwell's intended theme was religious tolerance, but he felt the original composition did not successfully make this point."
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:51, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I would put the sentence about Hoyt's specific denomination in a footnote. It bogs things down on a side point. But aren't Episcopalians protestants?
 * I have tried to revise the text.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:20, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "the Koran" I see only one book. Is this the Bible mentioned before as being toted?
 * I have changed both bible and Koran to religious book.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:03, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "didn't" I didn't think we were supposed to use contractions.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:58, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * That's about it.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Support on prose.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:24, 10 June 2014 (UTC)


 * Images are okay - Two non-free images, both with solid FURs. Should be ready to go. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

Bull manure from Curly Turkey

 * well-known Four Freedoms oil paintings; prominent thinker of the day: these come across as WP:PEACOCK to me—either way, I don't think they're necessary, so I've copyedited them out.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:03, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Freedom to Worship or Freedom of Worship is the second of the well-known Four Freedoms oil paintings produced by the American artist Norman Rockwell that were based on the four goals called the Four Freedoms enunciated by the 32nd President of the United States, Franklin D. Roosevelt, in his State of the Union Address delivered on January 6, 1941.: That's one long opening sentence!  Can we cut it up?  Also, I think it could be tightened up a bit—things like "President of the United States" can be shortened to "President", since we already know we're talking about Americans:
 * How about something like: Freedom to Worship or Freedom of Worship is the second oil painting of the Four Freedoms oil paintings produced by American artist Norman Rockwell.  The series was based on the four goals called the Four Freedoms enunciated by President Franklin D. Roosevelt in his State of the Union Address on January 6, 1941.''
 * I see this has already been executed. N.B. Freedom to of Worship.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:23, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * theme was eventually incorporated into the Atlantic Charter: can we get a brief explanation of what the Atlantic Charter is?
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:08, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Durant also lectured on history and philosophy: Which Durant? This comes directly after mentioning Ariel, but it seems you're talking about Will.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:02, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * instrumental in the U.S. Government War Bond Drive: is there something good to link to here?
 * I tried Series E bond.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:36, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The attractive dark-haired woman: probably want to avoid words like "attractive" without good reason
 * Removed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:40, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * as a black man and a Roman Catholic priest awaited his services: whose services, the Jew's or the Protestant's?  Also, the article on Jews suggests that "Jew" may be preferred to "Jewish person".
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Other models were Mrs. Harrington: Who? If we have no more info, I'd go with "a Mrs. Harrington".
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:03, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 *  a rosary and the religious book: why a rosary and the religious book?
 * This is an artifact from editorial changes made above. Now, fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:07, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "'furtively' painting the face of the black woman at the top; the man at the bottom, with his fez, was too obviously foreign to offend.": attribution?
 * I may need to check the source that I no longer have.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Attributed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:28, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * the weave of the canvas to contribute to the image: Contribute what?  Texture?
 * Texture is likely one element, but I don't know if we need to enumerate an explicit set of contributions.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:11, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Source says: "Although often darkened or otherwise enhanced in reproduction, Freedom to Worship is composed of soft grays, beiges, and browns and is painted so thinly that the weave of the canvas is visible with no brushstrokes showing. Rockwell may have felt thtat these stylistic changes in ''The Four Freedoms were improvements to his regular painting style, reflecting his understanding of the importance of this commission and perhaps his anticipation of the public reaction to the works."--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:38, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "I thought your Four Freedoms were great. I especially loved the Freedom of Worship and the composition and symbolism expressed in it. It appealed to me very much.": I'd drop "It appealed to me very much." since we already know he though the series was "great" and he "especially loved the Freedom of Worship".
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:13, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "platitude that suggests the plurality of Rockwell's own thoughts on religion: its likely source was a phrase included in the Thirteen Articles of Faith by Joseph Smith.": attribution? Also, is this technically a "theory", or just an opinion?
 * I don't understand your point. This is sourced. Don't understand your question either, but I am not in possession of the source. I had checked it out from the Chicago Public Library. Do I need to order this book again?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:19, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "Theory" sounds awfully more formal to me than what sems to be implied here. Was the author putting forth an actual theory on something, or just conjecturing something and using the word "theory" in an informal way?  You know, "theory" in the sense of "My theory is, that guy's just messed up.", as apposed to "theory" in "opponent process theory". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 08:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Are you talking about theory on the liklihood of the source or theory on the plurality of Rockwell's beliefs?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Either way, everything in quotes is directly from the source. There is not much room for change because even the "original prose" outside of quotes strongly supports the source.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:44, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The word "theory" isn't in quotes, though, and we aren't restricted to using the vocabulary the source does (unlessd irectly quoting)—and in many cases, it would be irresponsible to stick to the sloppy usage of the source: for example, if you were paraphrasing someone who was talking about a criminal who had fled the scene of the crime, and the quote was, "The guy literally flew from the place!", it woould be irresponsible to parahrase this as "The perpetrator actually aviated his way from the scene." It's obvious that the speaker was not using "literally" in its literal sense; similarly with the word "theory" here, where no formal theory appears to have been put forward. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 09:47, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The word "theory" has been removed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:25, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Attributed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:49, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Claridge feels: who?
 * Author of one of the references that I no longer have.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:38, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Now linked.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:00, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Some consider: such as?
 * I may need to check the source that I no longer have.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * linked.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:13, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * and somewhat "didactic": attribution?
 * I may need to check the source that I no longer have.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * ibid.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:17, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Others attack the scale: who?
 * I may need to check the source that I no longer have.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * I am going to run downtown to the library to research these issues this week.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:46, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Feel free to disagree with any of my copyedits. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 06:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

———Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 06:42, 24 June 2014 (UTC)
 * The article now opens with Freedom of Worship or Freedom of Worship—were you intending to drop one of the titles, or what happened? Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 08:14, 25 June 2014 (UTC)
 * , where do you stand on this nomination now?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Well, there are still some things that haven't been addressed, like the repetition of the title in the opening sentence. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 05:02, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Repetition corrected.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:04, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Let me know if any other issues remain.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 07:26, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, I think I'm ready to support. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 11:03, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Comment from Hamiltonstone
Interesting piece, thanks. hamiltonstone (talk) 12:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "Post editor Ben Hibbs chose Durant," Per body text standing independently of the lead, we need this person's first name. Also, the lead says WIll Durant was a philosopher; the body text says he "also lectured on history and philosophy". those two don't quite gel. Can we clarify what was his academic qualification / profession?
 * WP:LASTNAME is generally an exception to the "body text standing independently of the lead" consideration.
 * I just went downtown yesterday to get books from the library whose content was being challenged. However, I did not pick this one up. Saying he is a philosopher does not contradict that he lectured on history and philosophy. I assume many philosophers give lectures on philosophy as well as another subject or two.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:10, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * FWIW, here is the exact quote: "...Freedom of Worship ran, along with an essay by best-selling writer and lecturer on history and philosophy, Will Durant. In his mid-fifties, Durant was at the height of his fame and busy with his ten-volume life's work, The Story of Civilization''.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:35, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "The figure carrying the religious book in the lower left is Jewish." Lower right?
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:12, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "The dark-haired woman with the well-lit face" - but she has light hair - compare her to both the jew and the man behind her. The other two figures only have lighter hair than her because theirs is a pale grey.
 * removed--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:16, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "In June 1942, Post editor Ben Hibbs took to Rockwell's Four Freedoms sketches" What is meant by "took to"? I assume it means something like "took to them with a (metaphorical) hammer", but it needs to be clarified.
 * reworded.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:21, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "His final version relied on more subtle visual clues, including a rosary and a religious book". I must be missing something here. What could be less subtle than a rosary and a religious book? It is particularly hard to understand this analysis when one has his first work-up as context, where one of his problems had turned out to be the very subtle cues, that had themselves caused him to veer toward ethnic caricatures that he disliked.
 * reworded (more subtle -> other).--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:29, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "The work even had dark-skinned black worshipers juxtaposed on the edges." Maybe that was cutting edge in the forties, but put that way in a contemporary article ("even"?), that sounds very off.
 * Even removed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:36, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "The Four Freedoms did — do so" why is this dash here? I couldn't get it to scan.
 * Again. Don't currently have this source. I may be able to get back downtown.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:40, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Typo corrected.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 20:57, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * "Critical review of the painting describes disappointment of the universality of the Freedom of Religion,..." This expression doesn't make sense to me. I can't understand the phrase "disappointment of the universality of" so don't understand what the sentence is saying. Can you clarify?
 * I believe this means that the individual worshiper may be put off by a work that supports the practice of faiths other than their own. I think it means people want to see support for their own faith, but not necissarily support for other faiths. Suppose this was an artwork about freedom to love whomever or whatever you want. Although people might feel good about their own love interests being supported, they may not want to see a poster endorsing every freaky love interest known to man. A poster with a LGBT-sensitive depictions, men loving blowup dolls, men loving animals, women with dildos, etc, might be a bit much for the traditionalist.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:57, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Okay, can you revise it to be clearer about that. Maybe just "Some are disappointed by the acceptance of all faiths expressed in Freedom of Religion"?hamiltonstone (talk) 03:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Can you confirm the Time magazine item at footnote 8 really does not have an author?
 * From what I can tell it was a staff piece.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:43, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * There is an inconsistency in the expression of page ranges between footnotes 15 and 19.
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:19, 28 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Is that a mis-spelling of "Creepy" in the quote? hamiltonstone (talk) 03:05, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * Nope. It is crepey.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:24, 29 June 2014 (UTC)
 * It's probably a good idead to throw a [sic] beside that---most people probably won't realize it refers to crepe. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 11:03, 4 July 2014 (UTC)
 * , where do you stand on this nomination now?--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:51, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Still waiting for a fix for the para beginning "Critical review of the painting describes...", as above. hamiltonstone (talk) 05:17, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * I think that I have now corrected that issue.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:56, 2 July 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks for those responses. Support.hamiltonstone (talk) 12:38, 6 July 2014 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.