Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Fremantle Prison/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2015.

Fremantle Prison

 * Nominator(s): Evad37 &#91;talk] 06:01, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

This article is about the World Heritage listed former Australian prison – built by convicts, for convicts, between 1851 and 1859, and used as a prison until 1991. Unlike my other FA, GA, and A-class articles, the challenge was generally not in finding in finding reliably sourced information, but in distilling a vast quantity into an encyclopaedic article (and various sub-articles). This article has improved considerably since the 2006 nomination (old revision), and I believe it now meets the criteria. I look forward to your comments, and hope to eventually bring the whole set of articles to good or featured topic status. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 06:01, 25 April 2015 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:DoNoMurder_2005_SeanMcClean.jpg: I think this is a photo of a 2D work? If so, the photographer does not hold copyright, the original is likely simple enough to be public domain
 * File:FremantlePrisonMainCellBlockMap.jpg: what is the source of the information presented in this map? What do the different colours/lines represent?
 * File:EdmundHenderson.jpg: any more details about this image...first publication, author, date?
 * File:Fremantle_Prison_inmates_and_main_front_Iwel.tif: what is the difference between the two pages?
 * File:Fenians_escape_Fremantle.jpg: the Sketcher is the publisher not the author - any idea who the original author was?
 * File:FremantlePrisonWalsh1.JPG: again, representation of 2D work - license tags should reflect status of original image, not reproduction. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:44, 1 May 2015 (UTC)
 * DoNoMurder_2005_SeanMcClean.jpg – adjusted to
 * EdmundHenderson.jpg – details added
 * Fremantle_Prison_inmates_and_main_front_Iwel.tif – have requested removal of duplicate page at c:Commons:Graphic Lab/Photography workshop
 * The graphics lab people have now fixed it - Evad37 &#91;talk] 06:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Fenians_escape_Fremantle.jpg – source page doesn't indicate an author, so I have changed it to Unknown author
 * FremantlePrisonWalsh1.JPG – adjusted to use
 * I'll have to look into FremantlePrisonMainCellBlockMap.jpg – the author is inactive and hasn't contributed to wikipedia or commons for ages, so we're not likely to find out the original source used (though they were a tour guide at the prison, according to the wikipedia user page). I'll have to look through the sources I used in the article to see if I can find one to verify that layout. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 04:25, 2 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I found a source that verifies the layout, and have noted it at the Commons file description page. As for colours, it appears that yellow is used for limestone walls, and black for everything else, so I have added that to the Commons description. @Nikkimaria: that should be all the fixes for the images. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 06:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Comments taking a look now....queries below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The six-hectare (15-acre) site includes the prison cellblocks, gatehouse, perimeter walls, cottages, tunnels, and prisoner art. - this sounds weird - all are solid bits of building.....and then there's the art (??). I think I'd take off the art and describe it separately.
 * Done - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Convicts were initially of good character, as potential future colonists, but eventually less desirable convicts were sent, until the end of transportation in 1868. - this sentence is clunky and ends abruptly
 * Do you have any suggestions? Would it work better split into two sentences? - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * ...and few changes to mark the passing of time. - I don't know what this means (actually I think I'd remove this sentence as obvious and nonspecific to Freo prison really)


 * Meals were an important part of the day, breaking up the monotony, eaten in the cells, throughout the operational life of the prison. - I think I'd remove this as obvious and nonspecific to Freo prison really


 * Punishments for misbehaviour at various points in the prison's history included flogging, solitary confinement, a restricted diet of bread and water, time in irons, lengthening of a sentence, and restriction from visitors or entertainment. - again...don't these happen at all prisons? I'd ditch it....
 * The above three sentences are meant to summarise the "Routine", "Diet", and "Punishment" sections of the articles. They might be obvious and nonspecfic, but I feel something is needed in the lead (and per MOS:INTRO, the relative emphasis of content should be the same in the lead and the body of the article). - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm not concerned about whether these particular sentences are kept or removed, just that the topics should be mentioned in some form in the lead. - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)
 * sigh - yeah I see your point but I don't think it's essential, especially when the article is so big. Happy to leave it and see what the consensus is when more folks comment here. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * which contains two chapels - are they still chapels now? If not --> "contained" (also check tense here of other facilities not still in use)
 * Yes, they are still chapels, per - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Adjacent to the gatehouse are numbers 10 and 12 to the north, and numbers 14 and 16 to the south. - I'd maybe ditch this sentence and add "north" or "south" to the house numbers as they are discussed in the sentences immediately following
 * Done - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The prison's workshops provided activities and training for the prisoners. They also reduced the cost of maintenance, repairs, and construction by providing an in-house service.  - am tempted to remove both these sentences as generic....do they tell us anything unique?
 * Removed - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Prison life at Fremantle was highly regulated with a strict routine. Each day was very similar, without any changes to mark the passing of time. - isn't this true of all prisons? I'd delete these two and let the following sentences speak for themselves
 * Removed - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * .... to check if anyone was missing - isn't this implied by "muster"?
 * Removed - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Meals were an important part of a prisoner's day, breaking up the monotony of prison life - again, generic. recommend removing
 * Removed - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The sections on Moondyne Joe and the Fenians are quite large. I reckon the former could be trimmed a bit
 * I've trimmed both sections - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


 * The extent of the damage was in the order of £200 to £300. - err, we had decimal currency after 1966...?
 * Fixed - Evad37 &#91;talk] 07:26, 12 May 2015 (UTC)


 * Fremantle Prison is a substantial tourism precinct, enticing international and domestic visitors - I'd trim to "Fremantle Prison receives international and domestic tourists" - let facts speak for themselves in following sentences
 * Done - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:25, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

I'll read more later. Overall the prose is okay but I think could do with more trimming. The article is very long and has 64 kB readable prose (10435 words)..think we should get this to under 50 kb really... Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:37, 9 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments, I'll start working to resolve the issues - Evad37 &#91;talk] 06:28, 12 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Fixes mostly done (see replies above). By splitting most of the riots section off to a sub-article, and with trimming per the above comments, the size is now down to 59968 characters (9506 words) - Evad37 &#91;talk] 03:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok - down to 59kb prose as of now. The lead is really long still and any other content we could relegate to daughter articles would be good. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:47, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Closing comment -- Open close to a month and unfortunately not enough commentary to come close to consensus to promote, plus it sounds like restructuring may be in order, so I'll archive this shortly and ask that further improvements be made outside the FAC process. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 10:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.