Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/George Formby Snr/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via Hawkeye7 (talk) 20:59, 29 September 2014 (UTC).

George Formby Snr

 * Nominator(s): SchroCat (talk) 20:10, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

George Formby Snr was a music hall star, singer-songwriter and comedian. A Lancastrian by background, he used his regional background and his tuberculosis as a font for his humour. He died at the relatively young age of 46, but his son George picked up his act before coming a major star of the 30s and 40s. This article has undergone a major re-write recently, and a star cast at PR have tweaked, poked, prodded and polished. – SchroCat (talk) 20:20, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley
I was one of the peer reviewers, and had my few and minor quibbles dealt with then. This is a fine piece of work on an important figure in his field, on whom there is surprisingly little published material. SchroCat has tracked down what there is, and has built up as good an article on Formby Sr as Wikipedia, or anybody else, is going to get, bringing to light information missed by e.g. the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography in re Formby's bigamous marriage. A substantial achievement, meeting all the FA criteria in my judgment.  Tim riley  talk    21:30, 17 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for your comments both at PR and here - they are very much appreciated! - SchroCat (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Support from Cassianto

 * Support with some unconditional comments:
 * Unless I'm missing it, there is no introduction to Ted Granville. I, and a handful of others, would know him to be the proprietor of the Royal Albert Music Hall, but a hell of a load others, will not.
 * "His popularity increased when Marie Lloyd, the influential music hall singer and actress, said that she would only watch two acts: his and that of Dan Leno." →"His popularity increased when Marie Lloyd, the influential music hall singer and actress, said that she would only watch two acts: his and Dan Leno's."?
 * "After the Formbys had lost three daughters to early deaths, their first son was born in 1904, George Hoy Booth." →"After the Formbys had lost three daughters to early deaths, their first son, George Hoy Booth, was born in 1904."?
 * "For much of January and February 1908 Formby was booked to appear in London venues at £20 a week, and followed this the next year with playing three of the capital's music halls a night for £45 a week in total, which included performing at the Tivoli, with Lloyd and Little Tich as the headline acts. -- This might be a bit long for comfortable reading.  Also, I would say that "in total" is a bit redundant.
 * I must say that I think the "in total" is very important, as his TOTAL earnings were £45 (£15 per hall), rather than £135 a week in total -- a big difference! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:28, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * I hadn't read it like that actually. I read it like he performed in three halls a night and then at the end of the week, received £45; not like a salary, but that was what he had earned "in total". I just thought that saying "in total" was not needed as we could work out for ourselves that perhaps £45 was the total amount. Either are ok with me, but it depends on which way you like at it.  Cassianto talk 06:58, 23 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Formby was always worried that his son George would watch him on stage, as he did not wish the boy to become an actor, saying "one fool in the family is enough." -- Are actors considered to be "fools"? Did he mean comedian, comic etc?
 * "Are actors considered to be "fools"?" Do I have to answer that...?!
 * Errr, no lol Cassianto talk 20:50, 18 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Formby returned within a week and the reviewers were more positive, with The Observer stating..." -- Can "reviewers" refer to a newspaper, or should it be "reviews"? If you want to use "reviewers", might I suggest using a person as they are the "reviewer", or adjusting it to "a reviewer for The Observer..."
 * "By making the orchestra play his entrance music and not appear..." -- Formby or the orchestra?
 * "His act included songs, described as "characteristically simple, some with tunes derived from Methodist hymns, and with catchy choruses" -- By who?
 * "One of Formby's nicknames, 'The Wigan Nightingale' was coined 'because of the way he incorporated his rasping, bronchial cough into his stage act' ". -- are the last set of quote marks necessary? Cassianto talk 17:00, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * All your suggestions adopted - many thanks for all your thoughts at PR and here. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Source review
- spotchecks not done
 * Per MOS:ACCESS, bolded pseudoheadings should be replaced by normal subheadings
 * FN22 should be BBC Online
 * FN25: not sure about this. The citation is incomplete, but actual source being cited is the memorial itself, not the photo of it, and Find-a-Grave is not a great source
 * Suggest spelling out Hampshire. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:15, 18 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Thanks Nikki - much appreciated as always. I'll try and track down a replacement for the memorial, just to make it a little more concrete. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:34, 18 September 2014 (UTC)

Support & image review

 * My apologies for not coming here sooner. I got a little... caught up... in September Morn (which may visit this page in the coming months!), but I've got an image review for you here.
 * File:Eliza Formby, nee Hoy, c. 1921.png - Fine
 * File:George Formby Sr, 1919.jpg - Your licensing on the two seems to be conflicting, or at the very least there are some nasty looking error messages coming up. PD-1923, certainly. If we're going PD-UK-anon as well, then this should be prepared for Commons, which won't have issues like that.
 * File:George Formby Snr in costume.png - Conflicting tags again. He signed it in 1920, so it's obviously 1920 or earlier (likely in the few years before 1920)
 * File:George Forbmy snr in stage garb.jpg - This one's signed 1915, meaning this is a fairly early image.
 * File:George Formby Snr as The Wigan Sprinter.jpg - Conflicting tags again.
 * File:George Formby snr, 1921.jpg - Fine
 * File:Funeral of George Formby, Snr.png - The date of the photograph is certainly not 21 October 1922, a year and a half after Formby's death... it would have been taken during his funeral, probably in 1921.
 * I've tweaked this a little, as it wasn't the funeral (mea culpa with naming the file as such: it is the unveiling of the memorial (done in October 1922), rather than the funeral. - SchroCat (talk) 15:26, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Ah. Do you need me to move the file? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:29, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Already done - I worked out how to tag it properly in the end! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 15:45, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Excellent. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:49, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * File:George Formby Snr in Stage garb.png - The year "We All Went Marching In" was published should probably be in the information box. Conflicting license tags again
 * File:George Formby Snr in costume, 1913.jpg - Signed 1913, so it has to be before that. Conflicting tags again.
 * File:George Formby Snr in stage costume – signed.jpg - Conflicting license tags again.
 * File:George Formby Snr – costume montage – vertical.jpg - Fine except for the conflicting tags.


 * You can fix the issues I raised like this. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:56, 19 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks Crisco. I've done what I think is right (but probably stuck in a few more errors instead, as the tags are all gibberish to me at the best of times!) Let me know which ones are still left with issues, and I'll see how badly I can maul them again! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 12:03, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Support - Image tags have been cleaned up. Read over the article again, and I don't see anything sticking out. I had my say at PR. Good work! — Crisco 1492 (talk) 12:23, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Support from The Rambling Man
Comments - so much good work done, there's little left but for me to nitpick and probably waste both of our time...! Feel free to ignore all of the following.
 * "the pandemic of 1918" you link just "pandemic" although the article linked to is specifically about the pandemic of 1918...
 * "sang at pubs" reads a little odd, "sang in pubs" seems more conventional to me.
 * " Later on in his life" any real need for "on"?
 * In the quote, he says "... Which of the 'bhoys'..." - what does this mean?
 * It's an old Gaelic spelling of Boys (an h is often added to the b in Gaelic), and he was referring to his fellow performers. Would swapping it out to read as follows work: "Which of ... [my fellow performers], I wonder, can say ..."? – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Professor Baz Kershaw" care to place him context? Prof of what and where for instance. (Only because he's not notable enough for an article..)
 * "there is no evidence of a divorce" you've jumped a little here from marriage straight to an uncertain separation, anything in the middle of this?
 * There's nothing extra in the sources about this. There's a lack of information over much of his life, but especially about the more shadowy parts of his private life! – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "In 1897 or 98" is this really compliant with MOSDATE? I'm certain it must be, I just haven't seen it before....
 * "as the comedian also had several children with other partners" is there anything more that can be said about this?
 * Again, sadly not. The sources just don't cover this, except to mention it briefly. – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "the proprietor of the Royal Albert Music Hall, booked him to appear in his first London performances, at the Royal Albert Music Hall...." repetitive.
 * "had no problems in" not sure why, but this reads a little too colloquial for me.
 * Razzle Dazzle or Razzle-Dazzle?
 * Both, according to the sources! I've plumped for the hyphenated version, as that's the one we use in a quote. – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)


 * No such entity as The Dundee Courier, it's just The Courier which happens to serve Dundee.
 * It was The Dundee Courier previously, so I've gone for the name at the time (like the Manchester Guardian). – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Otherwise a thoroughly engaging and well-written piece of work. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:45, 19 September 2014 (UTC)
 * " his stage persona was also slightly changed" would it be better to say something like "he slightly modified his stage persona"?
 * "to the US" for prose why not "to the United States"?
 * "[71][28]" while I've never seen it writ anywhere, I'd prefer footnotes to be in numerical order. - I did it because WP:BOLD  NickGibson3900 Talk 03:04, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks u|The Rambling Man! I've addressed all the points, used all your suggestions as above, except where I've commented otherwise. Many thanks, once again. Cheers – SchroCat (talk) 11:00, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Support from NickGibson3900
I reviewed this at PR. I checked refs and prose then and doubt it has changed much in the last couple of weeks to much so that is basis of my support.  NickGibson3900 Talk 02:50, 20 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Nick, for your thoughts and comments both at PR, and here: they are very much appreciated! Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 11:02, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

Comments from Brianboulton
I missed the peer review through absence, so this has been my first opportunity to read through this interesting article. I am ashamed to say that, until I recently read the excellent Formby junior article, I had no idea that George Senior existed, and it has been a revelation to read about him. Incidentally, I note from the image caption that his wife (soi-disant) Eliza lived to be 102, which might be worth mentioning in the text. I am much inclined to support, but have a number of relatively minor issues to clear first:
 * "John Willie" should, I think, be in quotes, as a persona rather than a person
 * I'm someone surprised that, as a relatively young child, Formby was employed as a "loom builder". As the link makes clear, looms are quite intricate pieces of machinery, not the sort of things that uneducated kids can just put together; is there any better indication of the nature of the work he actually did?
 * Sadly not: the source are vague on much of his life, and this is no exception, with "llom builder" being the only description available. - SchroCat (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Formby began to develop his own stage act during the 1890s, building a large following in Lancashire as he did so, and devised several characters with their own costumes, and a series of comic songs." The sentence meanders; I suggest split after "as he did so". Then, "He devised..." etc
 * Are you sure about the format "JH"?
 * I'm a bit surprised that the concept of "recording rights" existed as early as 1896. In any event I would replace the comma between "songs" and "securing" with an "and".
 * "Chaplin also imitated Formby's cane twirl and duck-like walk into his act". Wrong use of "imitated" – you can't "imitate into". Suggest "incorporated"
 * In the short paragraph dealing with the Salter marriage, you move too quickly from the marriage to talk of divorce and separation. You need some intermediate phrase, e.g. "The marriage does not appear to have been successful, although according to Formby's biographers..." etc.
 * In the third line of the fourth paragraph of the "Burgeoning stage career" section, the word "marriage" appears three times in close proximity. You should try to rephrase at least one of these.
 * "In 1902, while Formby was performing in Leeds, Ted Granville, the proprietor of the Royal Albert Music Hall in London's Canning Town, booked him to appear in his first London performances, at the venue for £3 a week" – over-punctuated, and somewhat awkwardly expressed. I suggest: "In 1902 Formby performed for the first time in London, when he was booked by  Ted Granville, the proprietor of the Royal Albert Music Hall in  Canning Town, to appear for £3 a week;"
 * You have sensibly confined your present-day value comparisons to the footnotes, where with a bit of luck few people will notice or be confused by them. However, I would advise that you amend the figures slightly, by using rounded numbers consistently; "approximately £3,188" doesn't read like an approximation, and you should make it £3,000.
 * Reading that Formby made his first recordings in 1906 makes me wonder again at the earlier mention of his obtaining recording rights 10 years earlier
 * Please would you change "onto phonograph cylinder" to "on phonograph cylinder"? Although American English accepts the onto word unconditionally (I am told), many British style guides find it objectionable. It isn't a generational thing, because Dickens used it and he was before even my time. It just doesn't look right. And perhaps "cylinder" should be pluralised?
 * "let lose in the capital" is presumably a typo ("loose"). If the source says "lose", then give it a [sic]
 * "included performing at the Tivoli, with Lloyd and Little Tich as the headline acts". This appears to contradict what you said earlier, that after his London Pavilion appearances, Formby "maintained top billing for the rest of his life, both in music hall and pantomime."
 * I've removed the letter phrase. I was never entirely happy with the claim it made, and it's clear that the obit may have over-claimed here. - SchroCat (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "a new contract worth £300 a year": clarify that this refers to a recording contract
 * I'm not an expert on ties, but am reliably informed that "tiepin" is a single word.
 * Are you sure about Max Wall "appearing on later bills with Formby"? According to his ODNB article Wall made his stage debut, aged 14, in 1922, by which time Formby was well and truly dead. Wall's parents were music hall performers, so Max was no doubt familiar with Formby and other performers without actually appearing with them, but it might be necessary to amend the text slightly.
 * I've tweaked to remove the reference to Wall, but lefe the oxygen tent, which is mentioned here and in other sources. - SchroCat (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * "Chaplin, who derived some of his stage persona from Formby's..." As you've just been discussing Formby Junior, you should clarify that this is a reference to Formby senior
 * I've split the para to leave the Chaplin info in a separate para, which should clarify things. It may mean that the paras are too short and stubby, so let me know if you think this is the case, and I'll try and re-work it. - SchroCat (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll be happy to support when these issues are addressed. Brianboulton (talk) 19:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)


 * u|Brianboulton, many thanks indeed for your thoughts and comments here. As always they are hugely appreciated and much welcomed. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 22:00, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Support: You have dealt neatly and efficiently with the issues I've raised. George Snr should join his son in the FA pantheon. Brianboulton (talk) 11:53, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks, as always, for your thoughts. All the best - SchroCat (talk) 13:38, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Support: I reviewed this article at peer review, and my concerns were well addressed. The article has also profited greatly from the extensive comments of the other commenters at PR and here. The article appears to be comprehensive, well written, well illustrated, and to satisfy the other requirements of FA. I support its promotion, and congratulations to SchroCat on an excellent job! -- Ssilvers (talk) 21:21, 22 September 2014 (UTC)
 * Many thanks Ssilvers: your comments at PR, directly and in the article have been very much appreciated and have strengthened the article considerably. Thanks again - SchroCat (talk) 09:26, 23 September 2014 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 10:07, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.