Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Gianni Schicchi/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain 22:39, 30 December 2010.

Gianni Schicchi

 * Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 17:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC), Brianboulton (Talk)

I am nominating this for featured article because... Gianni Schicchi was the last opera that Puccini finished; his final work, Turandot, was left incomplete. Schicchi is Puccini's only wholly comic opera, a delightfully amoral tale of family greed thwarted by a resourceful rogue. Famous for the lilting aria "O mio babbino caro", the work has been received enthusiastically all over the world. The article has been peer reviewed, and has benefitted from other knowledgeable attention. For your pleasure, we trust. On behalf of conom Brianboulton and Wehwalt (talk) 17:59, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Oppose WP:FA Criteria 3
 * File:Puccini6.jpg lacks a proper caption
 * What do you consider is a "proper caption" for a portrait of the composer, other than his name? Captions are required to be succinct, which means "marked by brevity and clarity". Brianboulton (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Note that WP:Captions states that "Not every Wikipedia image needs a caption." and "Other images (especially within standard info boxes) where the purpose of the image is clearly nominative, that is, that the picture serves as the typical example of the subject of the article and offers no further information – no caption needed." -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:27, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I am very puzzled by this. There is a clearly marked box in the right corner of the lead. The box has the linked name "Giacomo Puccini" at top, a photographic portrait of a man below this, and the word "Operas" below the portrait. How is it not clear that this is a photo of Puccini? Must the caption be below the image? How could anyone think this photo is of "Operas"? Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)


 * File:Gianni_Schicchi_will_scene.png lacks context in the caption
 * The image is placed within the Synopsis section and the caption identifies the scene: "The relatives listen to the reading of the will. From the original Metropolitan Opera production". Within the meaning of "succinct", what context is lacking? Brianboulton (talk) 00:34, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * There is a lot of use of the PD-US with the images, this tag is inappropriate for commons usage, and I would encourage that it be demonstrated that the images used are free in the US and the country of origin, so that they may be enjoyed by editors & readers of other Wikipedias other than the English one Fasach Nua (talk) 19:45, 22 December 2010 (UTC)


 * File:Puccini6.jpg is a navbox image, it is not possible to put a caption in. This is what consensus has approved for Puccini operas, and it was not objected to at the Tosca FAC (although Fasach Nua did not participate in that one).  I will look closely at the other ones and report back.--Wehwalt (talk) 20:35, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * When considering if an article should be made into an FA, the best resource is the WP:FA Criteria, and I direct you to criteria 3, "It has images ... with succinct captions", and there is no limitation to templates which preclude the use of captions Fasach Nua (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * You make a good point and I will discuss it with the conom and get back to you. On the other three images that are pre-1923, I have documented that they were taken in the US and thus only US law needs to be considered.  I will make a forward practice of doing that, I have two such images in Carousel (musical), an upcoming FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:16, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * My main issue is that the image is located were in most wp articles the subject is pictured, and this could potentially causes confusion. If the template content wasn't hidden, I would be happy, as it would be more obvious that this is a navigation tool rather than a more fundamental component of the article. Fasach Nua (talk) 15:54, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The "Show" button makes it obvious it's a navbox. These are standard on all opera articles and their default state is collapsed unless they contain three or less operas to avoid distorting the layout of the articles. This template cannot be set to uncollapsed as this will affect all 12 of the other articles in which it appears. As I said below, it has a caption, above rather than below the image and the fact that Puccini is the composer is blindingly obvious to the reader from the first sentence of the lede. No reader is going to think the portrait is of Gianni Schicchi. Nor are they going to think the article is a biography of Puccini. I fail to see how this navbox could remotely "cause confusion". Note that these navboxes have not been an obstacle to any of the other seven opera articles which have achieved FA status. Voceditenore (talk) 18:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Expanded Voceditenore (talk) 18:34, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment: Images and files look ok; File:Gianni Schicchi will scene.png could be moved to Commons, as could File:Schicchi original cover.jpg (if not legit on Commons, perhaps Do not move to Commons would be a good addition). J Milburn (talk) 19:46, 22 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree that the images and captions look good.  The first image is identified by the heading over the image.  The will scene from the opera is certainly adequately identified in the caption of the photo, and the placement of the image next to the plot synopsis describing the scene provides ample context.  -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:20, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I agree with Ssilvers, Brianboulton et al. While "world-wide free" is desirable, it is not a requirement for Featured Articles on English Wikipedia and is therefore an irrelevant objection. Frankly, so is the objection re the "lack of caption" in the navbox. The image is a straightforward standard portrait, clearly identified by the name above it. A caption would add nothing of benefit to the reader in terms of contextualizing it and in my view is patronizing. It was taken by the American photographer Frank C. Bangs, who specialised in theatrical portraits and died in 1928. It is therefore "free" in both the US and its country of origin, i.e. the US. Also, there are many FAs where the portrait of the person has no caption, particularly when they are standard photographic portraits, these include Edward Drinker Cope, Barbara McClintock, G. Ledyard Stebbins, Alfred Russel Wallace, John Martin Scripps, etc. etc. Voceditenore (talk) 06:43, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Support
 * Declaration of interest: I participated in the peer review. I am no expert in images, and do not wish to comment on User:Fasach Nua's customary opposition, above. On the text, however, I observe confidently that it passes all FA criteria with flying colours. A delightful article about a delightful work. Congratulations to both noms. Tim riley (talk) 20:06, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Support
 * This is an excellent article. Very well-written and thoroughly engages the reader. It is referenced to multiple scholarly sources and gives a more complete and well-rounded presentation of the opera itself and its performance history than can be found in any other single source. It is well illustrated—I see no problems with the images at all (or their captions) and have commented to that effect in more detail above. My only suggestion is that you link hat-trick in the phrase "Teresa Stratas sang the "trittico hat trick"." The term is not commonly used in the US and may puzzle some American readers and those for whom English is a second language. But this is a very minor quibble. Voceditenore (talk) 07:16, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * We have hat tricks too in the United States, most often when an ice hockey player scores three goals. I've added that link  Many thanks for the review and support, and to Tim Riley as well..--Wehwalt (talk) 13:07, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Support
 * Another declaration of interest: I've done some minor copy-editing on the article over the last week or two, and invited comments from the nominators about various points that worried me. Without fail, they replied promptly and helpfully and/or incorporated my suggestions into the article.  Overall, they have improved it immeasurably over the last few weeks from a worthy but bog standard article into one that fully deserves FA status. --GuillaumeTell 18:09, 23 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your support, and for the several useful comments and ce during the article's preparation. Brianboulton (talk) 22:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

Dab/EL check - no dabs or dead external links. -- Pres N  06:04, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

Support
 * This is a well-written and excellently sourced article. It would make a superb addition to the roster of Feature Articles on wikipedia. I have one possible addition to the performance history section would be the Met's current staging of Gianni Schicchi which was directed by Jack O'Brien and introduced in 2007 as a part of a new staging of Il trittico.4meter4 (talk) 03:01, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your support. I'd be a little cautious about adding more details of Met productions. The performance sections are already a little slanted towards American and British productions, and we have had to be rather ruthless in not extending the section beyond a point which unbalances the article. Thanks for the suggestion, anyway. Brianboulton (talk) 22:51, 26 December 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - File:Schicchi original cover.jpg is lacking authorship information, and the given source doesn't show original date/place of publication. Kelly  hi! 22:54, 26 December 2010 (UTC)
 * We are investigating this. Brianboulton (talk) 17:11, 27 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment The artist was Leopoldo Metlicovitz (1868-1944). It was published in Italy (Milan, I would have thought, since that was the seat of Edizioni Ricordi) in 1919. See: . Incidentally, there is a much better scan of this cover here. Voceditenore (talk) 18:04, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Here's more info. This is not the cover of the score or the libretto. It was a poster that Ricordi printed to publicize the opera as was their normal practice. No doubt to coincide with the Italian premiere in 1919. The provenance is documented in an exhibition catalog here on page 11. See also: . Voceditenore (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thank you very much for this extra information. I have altered the description information and added further details on the image page. Brianboulton (talk) 23:59, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I updated the license tag to PD-US-1923-abroad since it was apparently published in Italy, where it remains under copyright for 70 years after the author's death. Kelly  hi! 00:13, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Support and Source Review by Ruhrfisch. I have reviewed the article text ( with three quibbles ) as well as reviewing all of the sources ( with four quibbles ), and find it meets the FA criteria. In the interest of full disclosure, I originally uploaded File:Gianni Schicchi will scene.png on the English Wikipedia (it is now on Commons).
 * In the Lead, should the city for the Metropolitan Opera be identified, perhaps something like "When Il trittico premiered at New York's Metropolitan Opera in December 1918, ..." ? The opera name is linked, and I knew that the one in New York City has this name, but it was not clear to me that the only Metropolitan Opera in the world is the NYC one.
 * Does the first paragraph of Background need a ref? It is attributed to Canto XXX of Dante's Inferno, but I was not sure if an inline citation is needed.
 * The whole thing is sourced, appropriately I think. You do not have to ref the plot of Gianni Schicchi but I believe you have to ref works that formed the basis for the opera.  It is an interesting point, though, does anyone know if there is policy on whether you have to ref plot descriptions, even outside the article on them.  If that makes sense.--Wehwalt (talk) 03:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * The convention is that the plot of artisitic works does not need a ref in an article about that work (as the plot is sourced to the work), and the Plot section here has no refs. However, this is not an article on Dante's Inferno, and while the article makes it reasonably clear where to look for the incident in Dante, it does not specify the line(s) in the Canto (line 33 at least). I also find that Dante can either be somewhat difficult or fairly easy to follow in English, depending on the translation (and many of the English translations available on the web are in fairly outdated language). I looked at WP:CITE and it was not helpful in this case. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:23, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment The relevant lines from Canto XXX are 31-33 and 40-45. I suggest referencing it to this book p. 416. The book (Girardi, Michele (2000). Puccini: His International Art) is already listed in the Sources section and is used in multiple inline cites in the article. Voceditenore (talk) 10:17, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (more) Note also that footnote 36 on p. 416 in the work above, also gives the full bibliographic information including page numbers for the particular bilingual edition of the Inferno used, i.e. this one. Voceditenore (talk) 10:39, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I will link to the Girardi book. I do not think a direct link to the edition of the Inferno appropriate as it does not have the English translation in preview.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:46, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * I see what the problem was. The first two paragraphs of the Background section were originally one.  Someone in the last two or three days, since the last time I read the article through, split it and neglected to apply the footnote to the first paragraph, so it appears uncited.  I have taken care of it.  These things happen at a FAC in which a number of people are interested.--Wehwalt (talk) 11:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I have struck all of my quibbles now. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 14:11, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Well done, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:42, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * In Music, I think Budden's full name should be given and linked on first mention Alongside these dissonant passages are others which Budden calls "bland, schoolroom diatonism".[58] (it is given and linked in the refs)
 * Sources - should the Grove Music Online refs list "Oxford Music Online" as the (electronic) publisher?
 * Current ref 71 is linked to page 2 (of 3) for a web page - is there any reason not to link it to page 1, which also lists DVD versions of this opera and the three together? Puccini: Gianni Schicchi". Presto Classical. http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/w/57094/2. Retrieved 3 December 2010.
 * In the Sources section, I think the location of Indiana U. Press should be given Davis, Andrew (2010). Il Trittico, Turandot, and Puccini's Late Style. Indiana University Press. ISBN 9780253355140.
 * The two books which do not have ISBNs do have OCLC numbers which could be added - see this for Puccini: keeper of the seal and this for Opera Nights
 * Thank you for these reviews and your support. I have made all the adjustments you suggest except for the citation relating to Dante, which I will leave to conom Wehwalt. I have added the OCLC ref numbers, though these have to be outside the template as there is no OCLC field in cite book. Brianboulton (talk) 14:51, 28 December 2010 (UTC)
 * (later)I was wrong about the OCLC field in the cite book template and have adjusted. Brianboulton (talk) 15:20, 28 December 2010 (UTC)

Support
 * I made a few minor proofreading changes. This is an engaging article about an opera in the standard repertory.  I think it is a worthy addition to the growing list of FA-class opera articles.  Thanks to the nominators, and all who assisted them, for their fine work!  -- Ssilvers (talk) 22:14, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.