Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Great Auk/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 15:43, 16 May 2010.

Great Auk

 * Nominator(s): Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating the Great Auk article because I believe it is a comprehensive overview of the species, well-written and well-illustrated, and that it meets the criteria. The Great Auk was a large, flightless bird that actually gave penguins their name, though the auk was not related. It was hunted and collected into extinction in the mid-1800s. Thank you for reviewing the article. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 00:50, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment—no dab links or dead external links. Ucucha 00:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)

Images - I would prefer the image in the infobox to look into the article Fasach Nua (talk) 05:49, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Only one of the other images at Commons looks inwards, and I don't think it would do well as a taxobox image. If it is an issue, could the current picture be modified by just flipping it so the picture looks inward? I'm not an expert on picture liscensing and am not sure if we can do that, nor do I have any photo-editing software. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 20:56, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Per WP:MOSIMAGE, "It is often preferable to place images of faces so that the face or eyes look toward the text ... However, images should not be reversed simply to resolve a conflict between these guidelines; doing so misinforms the reader for the sake of our layout preferences." Which is a little proscriptive for my tastes, but I don't make the rules, unfortunately. Best, Steve  T • C 21:46, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Images I see the Oslo image has been tagged for deletion, the others are appropriately licensed. How about replacing the Oslo one with a habitat photo?  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:19, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done, though the habitat picture is of the island. Shame; I liked the Oslo picture. What is the difference between stuffed and reconstructed anyways?
 * The deletion nominator is claiming that the reconstruction is a 3-D work of art. I like the St Kilda image though  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  07:01, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


 * I've made these edits, please check (delinking countries, prune "however", "additionally", typo, remove hyphen after -ly etc) please check  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:45, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Look good.
 * It was the only species in the genus Pinguinus, a group of birds that included several flightless giant auks doesn't make sense, how can it be the only member of the genus if it includes several others?
 * Clause in sentence clarified "that survived until modern times", but I redid it anyways.
 * Text is a bit choppy in places, especially description, with short sentences that could be run together
 * Tried my hand at it.
 * *Despite its agility in the water, it was clumsy on land. Why would its agility in water lead to an expectation it would be agile on land? Although agile in the water... would be better
 * Good call.
 * including one with a cloak made of over 200 auk skins no obvious connection between skin and bones, Many Maritime Archaic people were buried with Great Auk bones, and one had a cloak made of over 200 auk skins.
 * Done.
 * in 1830 the islet submerged an event worthy of some explanation perhaps?
 * Volcano did it in.


 * More comments may follow on a second read, good luck  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:53, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've at least taken a stab at your concerns. Can you take another look at the Description section? Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 21:28, 3 May 2010 (UTC)


 * More comments  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:59, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * There's a bit of a tendency to use weasel words/padding like it is known. I fixed some of these in a second run through (please check), but "some scientists" might attract comment
 * laying one egg on bare rock &mdash; later it says they normally make a nest of guano, contradictory
 * The book source (which I no longer have access to) gave me the guano nest information, while the pretty exhaustive BNA account said bare ground. I had assumed that the bird did both, but a trawling through Google showed no references to guano nests. I've removed the guano bit as bare rock is much more frequently referenced.

Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 14:53, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, most auks lay on bare ground, and any accumulation of stones or debris is unusual or accidental.


 * Support all my concerns have been addressed  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  09:32, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment. I will be reviewing this article this week and have taken a quick look. Overall, the quality of this article is high. I'll reserve further comments for later, and have watchlisted the FAC and the article. Firsfron of Ronchester  13:40, 3 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Hello from your FAC neighbor to the south VVV :) I love it when people nominate well-crafted articles on interesting, though unpopular (or even obscure) topics. Please continue to work on, and nominate, articles like Great Auk, Rufous.
 * Further comments:


 * Is there are a reason to link very common terms like beak, wing, human, and rat? Readers will surely know what these are, if they have basic English reading skills.
 * Most people know the basics of beaks and wings but may want to know more. As a bird body part I vote they stay. I'll remove the human and rat wikilinks though.
 * Makes sense. Firsfron of Ronchester  16:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Eliminated rat and one of the human links. However, the other is in a long line of linked predators and I think it would just look weird if it wasn't linked as well.
 * Seems fine.


 * A citation is needed here: "The name Alca is a Latin derivative of the Scandinavian word for Razorbills and their relatives."
 * Didn't even need a new reference. Fixed.


 * "Juvenile birds had less prominent grooves in their beaks and had mottled white and black necks,[22] while the eye spot was a gray line through the eyes (which still had the white eye ring) to just below the ear."
 * I don't really know what this means.
 * I assume you are referencing the second half; I gave it a rewrite.
 * Thanks. Looks better. Firsfron of Ronchester  16:35, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "The Great Auk migrated[...] They were extremely common in the Grand Banks.[...] Its bones have been found as far south as Florida and Gibraltar..."
 * There is much fluctuation between singular and plural in this paragraph. A few other paragraphs are like this, too.
 * Fixed it here and in several paragraphs furthur down. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 13:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Approximate range map of the Great Auk; Being mainly coastal, the blue indicates the distribution limits, while yellow marks known breeding sites based on Grieve (1885)"
 * Either the "Being" needs to be lowercase, or the ";" should be changed to a full stop.
 * Good catch.


 * A 75-year-old man and his (presumably older) father-in law beat the auk to death because they believed it to be a witch?! How incredible. Not just the claims of witchery, but the ages of the men. Not really a FAC observation, just a reader's observation. Sad.
 * Weirdly written into the article. The sentence tells it as the source does, the 75 year old telling the story to someone. He actually slew the witch forty years earlier. I reworked that paragraph.


 * More later... Firsfron of Ronchester  04:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for undergoing the review. I've started with your concerns and will finish later. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 14:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I've gotten to everything above. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 13:28, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks. Here's the next batch:


 * "A captive auk was noted to give a gurgling noise when anxious."
 * Seems awkward. I suggest recasting to "A captive auk was observed making a gurgling noise when anxious."
 * Check


 * "The Great Auk was capable of swimming rapidly to gather speed, then shooting out of the water and landing on a rocky ledge not level with the ocean."
 * The 'not level with the ocean' part is unclear; can it be changed to 'above the ocean'? Unless this is not the meaning.
 * Done


 * Internal inconsistencies: The lede says the favored prey was "Atlantic menhaden and capelin, and crustaceans." The diet section says "Based on remains associated with Great Auk bones found on Funk Island and on ecological and morphological considerations, it seems that Atlantic menhaden and capelin were their favored prey.[40] Other species suggested as potential prey include lumpsuckers, shorthorn sculpins, cod, and sand lance.[38]" with no mention of crustaceans. A subsequent paragraph states that the young fed on regurgitated crustaceans, but the crustacean diet of adults should be specifically mentioned.
 * Checked the source before adding it in. Done, and good call.


 * "The Great Auk sexually matured when they were four to seven years old."
 * Another example of the singular/plural problem. "Great Auks..." would work better here.
 * Fixed


 * "The Great Auk is known to have been preyed upon by Neanderthals more than 100,000 years ago, as evidenced by well-cleaned bones being found by their campfires."
 * The 'being' can be removed here to de-clutter.
 * Done


 * "while the Saqqaq in Greenland..."
 * The Wikilink Saqqaq leads to a town in Greenland, rather than a native culture.
 * Great catch. Fixed.


 * "This species is estimated to have had a maximum population in the millions, although some scientists dispute this estimation."
 * 'estimate' probably works better here. 'Estimation' can also mean 'judgement', potentially confusing the reader.
 * Fixed.


 * Is a wikilink to history in the pop culture section necessary?
 * LoL. Don't think so, so removed.

Firsfron of Ronchester 15:19, 9 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I think I'm done with this batch. Thanks. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 03:48, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Support. All of my concerns have been addressed, the prose seems nicely polished, references are appropriate and abundant, and the article is clear to the average reader without being dumbed down. Nice work! And thanks for the swift fixes. Firsfron of Ronchester  04:32, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Sources comments
 * The link on ref 71 (Rockford's Rock Opera) is not particularly useful. Is there a better link that goes to the song in question, or gives an indication where the song might be found?
 * Otherwise, sources look good, no other issues. Brianboulton (talk) 10:13, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Did some more digging and found a page with some info and a link to the song (if you pay). I put it in the article. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 16:09, 10 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, but to make the connection clear I suggest that you mention the song title in your text, thus: "...and a song, 'A dream too far', in the ecological musical Rockford's Rock Opera." Brianboulton (talk) 10:02, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Done. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 14:47, 11 May 2010 (UTC)

Comments from Ucucha—
 * The lead says Penguinus included several other flightless extinct species, but the body includes only one and does not say it is flightless.
 * I expanded on alfrednewtoni, but that is the only Penguinus I could find evidence for (other than the species they both sprang from, which is unnamed and I have no idea how that works in terms of giving names), so I trimmed it back to a single other species.


 * "The Great Auk was found in the cold North Atlantic coastal waters along the coasts of Canada, the northeastern United States, Norway, Greenland, Iceland, Ireland, and Great Britain."—the range map shows it reaching the coasts of many more countries of continental Europe.
 * put France in as the southern European boundary
 * The "distribution" section still doesn't have it, though, and the map shows it extending to the northern coast of Spain. Ucucha 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Slipped it in and reworded for northern Spain. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "Its bones have been found as far south as Florida and Gibraltar,"—any data on how old these were (glacial?)
 * Seemed to be 17th century, though in the Florida case there are trading suspicions. What should I do with this?
 * For any archeological records, I think it's best to put date estimates in if they exist. It puts them into a bit more context. Ucucha 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * OK. Put it in. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * "in 1794 London banned the killing of this species for its feathers"—is London a metonym for Great Britain here?
 * Yep. Switched out.


 * What makes "The Extinction Website" a reliable source?
 * It looked reliable to me, but I switched it out for another Gaskell page.


 * Do you really need the location and publisher for journals?
 * Do I? It is in the citation template, so I assumed so and hunted down as many as I could (which is harder than it would seem)
 * You don't need to fill in everything in these templates, and the fact that it's so hard to find these data suggests that readers who want to find the reference won't find the location and publisher very useful. Ucucha 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Good to know. Thanks; this will save effort in the future. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Several references (Johnsgard, Meldegaard) are not formatted consistently with the rest (without citation templates).
 * Done.
 * Johnsgard appears to be a chapter from a 1987 book that is uploaded separately as a PDF file, should be cited as such. Ucucha 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Tuck (1976) ref is missing page number
 * p. 261.


 * Who Killed the Great Auk? is cited twice, but date is said to be 2000 in one ref and 2001 in the other
 * Amazon.com is wrong, changing to 2000.

Ucucha 18:28, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reviewing. I think I've addressed them all. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 20:26, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the fixes; I made a few replies above. Ucucha 21:14, 11 May 2010 (UTC)
 * I took another look. Thank you. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 01:08, 12 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks; I'll do a check for source coverage later and then hopefully support. Ucucha 02:27, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support Very well written article. --The High Fin Sperm Whale 05:34, 12 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Support, very interesting. Few comments:
 * References appear reliable
 * Images check out
 * I don't detect any MOS issues
 * In the description sec "blackish brown" should probably be hyphenated
 * "A person buried at the Maritime Archaic site at Port au Choix, Newfoundland, dating to about 2000 BC, seems to have been interred clothed in a suit made from more than 200 Great Auk skins, with the heads left attached as decoration." - In the lead this is mentioned as a fact, but in the body the words "seems" indicates it is a estimation. Can that be clarified?
 * The article mentions the use of the bird as bait in a couple places, you might want to clarify it as "fishing bait" (I think that is what is meant).
 * Reference # 2 needs an access date
 * Reference # 8, 62, 67, 70, & 75 have "pp.", but should only have "p."

Please fix those little things. Great job on this article! &mdash;Charles Edward (Talk 15:47, 14 May 2010 (UTC)
 * All fixed. Thanks for the review. Rufous-crowned Sparrow (talk) 16:42, 14 May 2010 (UTC)


 * WP:OVERLINKing, do we really need links to France, Spain, Cuba, United States, etc? Most English-speaking readers know what those are, and those links/articles add nothing to this article. I'm curious why km are converted to feet instead of miles?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:05, 16 May 2010 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.