Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/H-58 (Michigan county highway)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 08:02, 6 October 2012.

H-58 (Michigan county highway)

 * Nominator(s):  Imzadi 1979  →   02:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because this county road literally took an Act of Congress to get paved through Alger County. Now that the paving is done it's becoming a tourist attraction in its own right, even though it's the main road access to the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. I've enjoyed working on it, and I hope you'll enjoy reading it.  Imzadi 1979  →   02:28, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - I thoroughly reviewed this article at WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/H-58 (Michigan county highway) and feel that it meets all the FA criteria.  Dough 48  72  02:35, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support TBrandley 02:47, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. I enjoyed reviewing it at ACR. –Fredddie™ 03:01, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support per my review at ACR linked above. --Rschen7754 03:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Support I never thought an article about a road could be so compelling. Bruce Campbell (talk) 01:33, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Image check  - OK. Images from Manual on Uniform Traffic Control Devices (PD-MUTCD}, National Park Service (PD-USGov-NPS) and "Own Work" (self|cc-by-sa-3.0). Source info provided. GermanJoe (talk) 08:19, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments I live in Australia, have no idea of the geography of this region, and have never heard of this road before today. So I think I qualify as a fresh pair of eyes ;) While the article looks pretty comprehensive, its prose would benefit from some polishing, and a few sections could be fleshed out more. My comments are:
 * "between Munising and Deer Park" - should this be 'the towns of Munising and Deer Park'? (readers unfamiliar with this region don't know whether these are towns or some other geographic feature; especially as 'Deer Park' could be a nature reserve of some kind)
 * Tweaked with different wording to the same effect.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "At Grand Marais, H-58 exits the national park and runs through town. " - should this be 'runs through the town'?
 * In American English, we tend to eschew the definite article a bit more, and in this case, there's a minor distinction at work that means it shouldn't be used. "Through the town" would tend to imply more of a location legally defined as a town, which isn't a classification in Michigan. "Through town" would imply just an urbanized location, whether or not there is a legal jurisdiction or not. Leaving it as is doesn't carry that implication that there is a municipality named "Grand Marais", which is not an incorporated community (city or village) at all. Also, one could exit a city but still be "in town" because adjacent areas of a township (a legal entity) are still built up.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That sounds a bit more legalistic than I suspect most people would think about, but OK Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Paving projects were completed between 2006 and 2010 so that the entire length of H-58 in Alger County is now paved; the section in Luce County is still a gravel road." - I think that this should be tweaked, as the lead has already specified that the final section of the road is gravel
 * The sentence already specifies that "the entire length of H-58 in Alger County is now paved". I'm not sure what you want to see changed.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The first paragraph of the lead ends with "The segment running east of Grand Marais to Deer Park in Luce County is a gravel road that connects to H-37 in Muskallonge Lake State Park." (which is a detailed summary of this part of the road). This is then repeated by the last sentence of the lead ("the section in Luce County is still a gravel road.") Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * So you'd just like to see the second part of the sentence removed?  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "The roadway runs outside of, and parallel to, the southern boundary of the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore. " - does this mean it runs next to the lake, or next to the edge of public land? (the latter, I think)
 * The latter; the northern boundary of the park is the lake.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you please specify that in the article? Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Added something to the lead that should deal with another comment as well.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "The highway turns due east and runs through an intersection with H-13 (Connors Road). Leaving town," - I thought that the road had already left town?
 * It didn't, it crossed through the eastern end of the city, but it doesn't actually exit the city until the intersection with H-13.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I see that you've tweaked "through the end of town by the Neenah Paper Mill" to avoid this confusion Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "and enters the national park" - which national park? (none is specified, though I guess you're referring to the Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore)
 * While it is officially named the "Pictured Rocks National Lakeshore", it is a national park. National lakeshores are just a type of national park. I've used that term for the generic to avoid too much repetition of wording.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I think that it's confusing to be honest, and there isn't too much repetition of the term. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Same addition to the lead referenced above should fix this, but we're straying into over definition of what should be commonly understood terminology.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "H-58 meets H-15 in Van Meer, home of the Bear Trap Inn and Bar" - what's the relevance of the inn and bar? (and if this town is its 'home', does it mean that it moves around? ;) )
 * The bar is a local landmark, used by area residents as a point of reference for directions. In American English, a location can be a "home" to a fixed item. Road signs proclaim "Welcome to Marquette, Home of Northern Michigan University", for example.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Roadsigns and sports announcers aren't the best sources of style advice ... although they will, eventually, win, and then "home" will be a meaningless word. For the time being, it's still a metaphor for a place where a person or persons are welcome and feel comfortable, so when you say that a city is home to a school, or a stadium is home to a team, you're metaphorically saying that the school or team chose to be there. I personally didn't think the three uses of "home" in this article were appropriate to the metaphor, so I changed them ... feel free to revert. - Dank (push to talk) 23:54, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * If Merriam-Webster says it's fine in American English then, well, it's fine.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * And it doesn't. The closest of the definitions is: "a : a place of origin ; also : one's own country  b : headquarters 2 ". None of those support the word as it was used in the article. - Dank (push to talk) 00:55, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Grand Marais is the headquarters to that local lumber industry. I'll change the bar one, but I won't on the lumber one.  Imzadi 1979  →   01:01, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The wording in the article is "This town is the location of a small harbor that was once the home of a lumber shipping port", so the usage doesn't seem correct (as you're saying that the town was the 'home' of a port, and not that its currently the home of the local timber industry). Nick-D (talk) 02:57, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "The area on each end of the park averages around 140–144 inches (360–370 cm) of snowfall annually, while the National Park service says that this central section is higher." - the last part of this sentence is a bit awkward ('National Park service says' is unclear, and the central section presumably receives a greater quantity of snow, and is not geographically higher in altitude as this this suggests)
 * That's just what the source states. During the ACR, I was asked to add snowfall amounts, which I did, but since the NPS is a) the best/only source for this and b) isn't specific as to the central area of the park other than "higher", that's the best that's possible.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's not the concept that confuses me, it's the wording. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Suggestion?  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "This location gives motorists a chance to hike down to the lakeshore to see the Au Sable Point Lighthouse peeking above the trees to the east and the Grand Sable Dunes to the west" - are cyclists or people walking along the road barred from doing so? ;)
 * No, they are not. Cyclists and pedestrians in the US are typically only prohibited from expressways or freeways; other roadways allow them unless special restrictions are enacted, which in this case, there are none other than the annual winter road closure.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I was being a bit of a smart-arse with this comment: my concern is the use of the specific term 'motorists', given that people travelling the road through other means can obviously also hike to the lakeshore Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Please don't use sarcasm in a serious review, thanks?  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "At the intersection with William Hill and Newburg roads, H-58 makes a 90° curve northward for about three-quarters of a mile (1.2 km)." - I think I know what you're trying to say here, but the wording is awkward; a 90 degree curve is extremely sharp (its a L curve) the angle must be much less than that if it takes 1.2 km,
 * The curve isn't 3/4 of a mile long, the northward change in direction is. Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "once the home of a lumber shipping port" - as above ('home' is not a good term to apply to something which can't move)
 * As above, in American English, "home" can apply to fixed objects. "Home: 4a. a place of origin b. headquarters."  Imzadi 1979   →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmm, I think it sounds pretty odd. I'll ask Dank to comment, and go with whatever he says. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Replied above, and reverted the removal of a valid phrase in American English.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "The park hosts 71,000 visitors a year on the shore of Muskallonge Lake" - sounds a bit odd, and the number is more specific than I suspect you mean (unless there's a cap on the number of visitors permitted) - how about something like "The park is located on the shore of Muskallonge Lake and is visited by about 71,000 people each year"?
 * Swapped out, but the number isn't more specific than intended; if I had quoted an exact figure like 71,123, that would be too specific.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * It's the implication that 71,000 people visited the park each year which worried me. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * How so?  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The 'Road origins' section doesn't discuss why this road was first built, and subsequently upgraded. Can this be done? (eg, were the various projects done to link the townships, support logging, enable tourists to travel around, generate work in the Great Depression, etc)
 * No source specifically states such a reason, which is usually just to connect the locations along its path together. Absent a source specifying a reason, this cannot be added, sorry.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * OK (though you might find this through local newspaper archives) Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I have a photocopy of every newspaper article about this roadway from the vertical files of the local library, and no such article exists. Sorry.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "marking the official opening to traffic" - passive voice
 * There's nothing wrong with the passive voice though, but I tweaked it.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Motorcyclists now frequent the road, which has reduced travel times between Munising and Grand Marais from 90 to 45 minutes." - this sentence appears to combine two entirely different concepts the way it's written at present
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That's better, but you've used the word 'road' three times in one sentence. Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
 * "Not all residents have been happy with the new road; nails have been deliberately spread along the newly paved road. Thousands of them have been found along the road, which have led to flat tires on many vehicles" - what's the motivation for such a horrible (and dangerous) act? This wording could be polished a bit more (eg, "Thousands of nals have been scattered along the road, and have punctured the tires on many vehicles" might work better) Nick-D (talk) 10:42, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * No motive has been officially determined as no one has been caught to ask them why they were performing their acts of vandalism. Absent such an official determination, it's only speculation as to why.  Imzadi 1979  →   20:58, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Can you include something on this in the article? Nick-D (talk) 23:38, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
 * All I can say is that the police think it's intentionally done and that they don't have a motive for it.  Imzadi 1979  →   00:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - This article met the featured article standards quite well in my opinion when I reviewed it thoroughly at ACR. Looking over the article again, it still more than meets my expectations as well as passing the featured article criteria. -  Floydian  τ ¢  05:43, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.