Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/HMS Aigle (1801)/archive1

HMS Aigle (1801)

 * Nominator(s): Ykraps (talk) 07:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

This article is about a fifth-rate sailing frigate that served in the Royal Navy at the tail end of the French Revolutionary wars and throughout the Napoleonic war. She took part in some notable actions and campaigns, including the controversial Battle of Basque Roads and the disastrous Walcheren campaign. As can be seen from the edit history, I have done a not inconsiderable amount of work to the article since it became a Good Article in 2016. I have looked at the criteria for featured article and humbly believe it meets them. I am sure, however, that it can be improved and look forward to suggestions. Thanks in advance. Ykraps (talk) 07:50, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest scaling up the map
 * Done --Ykraps (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggest adding alt text
 * Done --Ykraps (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Easton_Massacre_Memorial.JPG needs a tag for the original work
 * Sorry, I don't understand what tag you are referring to. Can you be more specific? Thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The current tag on the image reflects the copyright of the photographer. What's missing is a tag for the memorial itself - most likely reflecting copyright expiration due to age, depending on when the memorial was created, or possibly PD-text. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The memorial is in the UK which has Freedom of Panorama (a church is a public place) so copyright is irrelevant from a UK point of view but I see that the US does not enjoy this privelege. The memorial was not erected until 1978 so the image probably isn't legal in the US.--Ykraps (talk) 18:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * My reading of commons:Commons:Copyright_rules_by_territory/United_Kingdom is that this would be considered a graphic work and so not covered by UK FoP. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:29, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I have trouble seeing it as a graphic work; it hasn't been designed, has little artistic merit and would not require any great skill to produce. There is still the issue of whether it is PD in the US, and I would say not. It isn't a very inspiring image so I don't mind losing it.--Ykraps (talk) 20:09, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
 * As we both seem to agree it doesn't meet the threshold of originality, a familiar concept in US copyright law, I've tagged PD-text, as you suggested.--Ykraps (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Bombardment_of_Flushing.jpg: which James Grant is believed to be the author?
 * Yes, it's from his 1880 book British Battles on Land and Sea --Ykraps (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * The author field of the image description currently links to a disambiguation page. Can the target be specified? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. Linked to James Grant (1822–1887).--Ykraps (talk) 18:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * File:Evacuation_de_Walcheren_par_les_Anglais_-_30_août_1809_-_Composition_de_PHILIPPOTEAUX.jpg: source link is dead, needs a US tag.
 * I've added a US tag but can't find an alternative source link. Does that mean I can't use the image? --Ykraps (talk) 09:07, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Not automatically, but can you specify where and in what form the work was first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 13:20, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * It is plate no. 179 in the 1870 French book, Collection de 350 gravures, dessins de Philippoteaux, etc. pour l'histoire du Consulat et de l'Empire Volume 2 by Marie-Joseph-Louis-Adolphe Thiers (OCLC = 458280134). That must have been one of its first appearances.[] --Ykraps (talk) 18:22, 4 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I've replaced the dead link on Wikimedia Commons with the book info.--Ykraps (talk) 05:42, 8 September 2022 (UTC)

Nikkimaria (talk) 02:55, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

HF - support
Ping me if I haven't started by Thursday. Hog Farm Talk 00:39, 13 September 2022 (UTC)


 * "Her sister, HMS Resistance, following later in 1800" - does this work in British English? I don't think it's grammatical in AmEng
 * It doesn’t work as a separate sentence, no; it should run on from the previous one: Aigle was the first of two.. her sister following in 1800. Is that what you meant?--Ykraps (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes. I've made a slight copy edit to the sentence here; revert if you don't like it. Hog Farm Talk 19:12, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * No, I'm happy with that.--Ykraps (talk) 17:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "and a depth in the hold of 13 ft 0 in (4.0 m)" - is this depth of hold?
 * It is. I’ve added a link.--Ykraps (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sail plan from the infobox isn't mentioned in the body or really cited anywhere
 * All frigates of the period were ship-rigged. I've added to main body and sourced.--Ykraps (talk) 17:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * " Naidad managed to capture two enemy vessels" - Is Naidad an alternate name for Naiad or just a typo?
 * Nope, it’s a typo. Fixed.--Ykraps (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Two Chasse-marées" - not sure that chasse-marées should be capitalized here - we wouldn't capitalize frigate or schooner in this context. Same with Lugger later in the article.
 * Agreed. I’ve downgraded to lowercase although several sources do use caps.--Ykraps (talk) 17:56, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Ready for the action off Groix; will get back to this soon. Hog Farm Talk 04:00, 15 September 2022 (UTC)


 * No rush. I am away this weekend and may not be able to attend to this promptly but will as soon as I return. Thanks for taking the trouble to review.--Ykraps (talk) 15:39, 15 September 2022 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure that note 4 about Imperieuse is really directly relevant to this article
 * Removed - At the time of writing, there was no article for Imperieuse.--Ykraps (talk) 06:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * So what exactly did it do after Walcheren? I'm assuming some sort of commerce raiding or anti-privateer work, but the capture of Phoenix just pops up out of nowhere.
 * I think she joined the Channel Fleet but there is no record of this. I accept what you say as popping up out of nowhere so have moved it to the Prizes section as a footnote.--Ykraps (talk) 06:50, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Aigle and Curacoa used" - what type of ship is Curacoa?
 * Same as Aigle. Added.--Ykraps (talk) 07:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Recommend combining the postwar and fate sections, as they're both so short.
 * Done.--Ykraps (talk) 07:02, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

I think that's all from me. Hog Farm Talk 03:21, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Support from Gog the Mild
Recusing to review.

Lead
 * "HMS Aigle was a 36-gun, fifth-rate frigate of the Royal Navy." 'British' needs to be in there somewhere; there were several navies which were royal.
 * Added, although it seems unnecessary as other royal navies aren't called Royal Navy. I wouldn't expect to see Nederlands added to Koninklijke Marine, which by logical extension should be the case. Also, strictly speaking, the Royal Navy isn't British, it belongs to the Crown.--Ykraps (talk) 07:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "in April 1803 to press recruits." What is your basis for using "press" as a verb?
 * It's both a noun and a verb, [] and routinely used as such in sources: "...to deliberately press men" [], "...to press any Englishman" [], "...to press the people" [] --Ykraps (talk) 07:43, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "patrolling the English Channel for enemy warships and merchant vessels." "for" seems a bit unclear; at first reading it suggests 'on behalf of'. Possibly state what Aigle was actually doing?
 * Done. Changed to "trying to keep the English Channel free of enemy warships and merchant vessels". --Ykraps (talk) 07:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "forcing the other ashore." into a harbour or wrecking it?
 * It usually means to force aground but yeah, I get it sounds ambiguous. Changed to 'forcing the other onto the shore'.--Ykraps (talk) 07:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Aigle fought the Battle of Basque Roads in 1809" → 'Aigle fought at the Battle of Basque Roads in 1809'.
 * Done.--Ykraps (talk) 07:52, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "the Battle of Basque Roads in 1809". Is the precise date known?
 * It was a series of actions which occurred between 11–24 April. Added April. --Ykraps (talk) 08:01, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "the fireships". Usually "the" is only used about something which has already been properly introduced. Also, the current phrasing conveys little or no information to a reader. Consider either deleting or expanding.
 * Added a bit more. [] --Ykraps (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "then forcing the surrender of the stranded French ships, Varsovie and Aquilon." It may be me, but that comma looks odd.
 * I don't think it's wrong in British English but may be a little old fashioned.--Ykraps (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Removed. On reflection, I'm not sure that is correct usage. --Ykraps (talk) 17:06, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "the Battle of Basque Roads and the Walcheren Campaign: perhaps mention where, geographically, each took place? Maybe mention that one was naval battle and the other a land campaign. Maybe mention who won the former, as you do the latter?
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "and the other a land campaign" ?
 * I've used the term amphibious to indicate this was both a land and sea operation (the bombardment of Flushing for example). --Ykraps (talk) 07:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "the British forces withdrew in September". This only really makes sense if a reader has already been informed that it was an amphibious operation.
 * Not sure I agree; one can withdraw from land and naval battles. --Ykraps (talk) 08:14, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair point. But in this case it refers to a land force.
 * I think this has been settled by my answer above but let me know if you disagree. --Ykraps (talk) 07:04, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "From 1852, she became a coal hulk" → 'In 1852, she became a coal hulk'.
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "then a receiving ship". 1. When did this happen? 2. What is a receiving ship?
 * 1. Sources don't say. 2. A ship for receiving new recruits. - I've added a link.--Ykraps (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "she became a coal hulk, then a receiving ship". This is not reflected in the main article.
 * It's in the second paragraph of the Post war and fate section. --Ykraps (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Nope. That reads "where she was converted to a coal hulk and receiving ship". Ie simultaneously, not sequentially. I admit that the former seems a bit improbable, but I am AGF that it reflects the source.
 * Ah, I see. She was dual purpose. I've clarified in the main body and altered the lead to agree. --Ykraps (talk) 06:22, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "before being used as a target for torpedoes". The main article mentions a singular torpedo.
 * It didn't when the lead was written. I've rewritten the corresponding article text. --Ykraps (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:44, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for this thus far. --Ykraps (talk) 08:35, 25 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Are you still intending to add to this? Thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 17:40, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Once you have responded to all of my comments I will go through your responses, which may or may not lead to further comments from me. Once we have settled those I will do another read through which again may or may not lead to further comments. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:11, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Body


 * "Aigle was the first of two Aigle-class frigates". Any chance of an in line explanation of what a frigate is, per MOS:NOFORCELINK? ("as far as possible do not force a reader to use that link to understand the sentence. The text needs to make sense to readers who cannot follow links.")
 * There already is a description in the section, which I've now moved nearer the start. --Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * In Battle of Lagos I describe them as "smaller and faster than ships of the line and primarily intended for raiding, reconnaissance and messaging"; would something similar be possible?
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 07:54, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "her sister, HMS Resistance, followed later in 1800." By "followed", do you mean ordered, laid down, launched or commissioned?
 * I've settled on ordered. --Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Consider deleting "were not wildly innovative and". I assume there were very many things his designs were not.
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Optionally, a sentence or so on the pros and cons of cannon v carronades might be helpful.
 * That's quite an extensive subject but I've added the ones most often quoted. --Ykraps (talk) 15:53, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Nice.


 * Why is 18lb converted to kg to one decimal place and 32lb to none?
 * Fixed. --Ykraps (talk) 17:18, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "13 ft 0 in (4.0 m)". Suggest → '13 ft 0 in (4 m)', or even '13 ft (4 m)'.
 * My previous FA experience of that is that others will then ask, "Why are the other dimensions to one decimal place...?" --Ykraps (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Is it known why she was named Aigle?
 * There was another HMS Aigle which sank the year before this one was ordered. I strongly suspect the latter was named after the former as this was common practice. However, there are no sources which say that. Aigle is French for eagle but I assume you know that and that's not what you're asking. --Ykraps (talk) 17:54, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * A brief in line explanation of what a press gang was?
 * I think all that was missing there was what a press gang did. Added. --Ykraps (talk) 15:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "and discovered Aigle's crew battling a flotilla". Perhaps "crew" → 'boats'? Crew implies the whole crew, and when I first read it I thought that you meant that Aigle herself was engaged.
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Aigle picked up Gertrude′s crew." All of them, or just the survivors?
 * I assume just the survivors; those that drowned would most likely been lost. Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Sorry, thought we were talking about Charente and Joie. Yes, the entire crew. --Ykraps (talk) 17:22, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "which had since left the port". Since when?
 * 20 August. Added. --Ykraps (talk) 15:14, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Commander-in-Chief". Why the upper case initial letters? See WP:JOBTITLES.
 * Following the source. Downgraded. --Ykraps (talk) 17:15, 29 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "For an hour she had to endure their fire". Is it known how the Spanish were able to manoeuvre to attack when there was no wind?
 * Sources don't say but as most gunboats carried oars, I imagine they were rowed into position. --Ykraps (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "in a cutting-out expedition". Could there be a brief in line explanation?
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 08:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "At 15:45, two French frigates to the south-east were simultaneously seen ...". Perhaps 'At 15:45, the two French frigates were simultaneously seen to the south-east ...'?
 * Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "the five British returned to the island" → 'the five British ships returned to the island'.
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:06, 30 September 2022 (UTC)


 * "Aigle was part of the fleet under Admiral James Gambier". Is the name of the fleet known?
 * That was normally the domain of the Channel Fleet. If I can find a reference, I'll add. --Ykraps (talk) 08:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 10:40, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "when on 11 April Lord Cochrane led". Cochrane's military rather than civilian title may be more appropriate.
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 04:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "The British ships anchored, with springs". I much doubt that what most readers will visualise here is what you would like them to.
 * I've added a footnote. --Ykraps (talk) 04:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * Neat.


 * "both of which struck at around 17:30". Struck what? A shoal?
 * Their colours. Added and linked. --Ykraps (talk) 05:24, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * I usually footnote this as "A ship's "colours", a national flag or battle ensign, are hauled down from her mast, or "struck", to indicate that the ship has surrendered. (Wilhelm, 1881, p. 148)"
 * Okay, I've stolen your footnote but used my own reference to save adding more sources. --Ykraps (talk) 07:31, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "there being insufficient water for the British frigates." → 'there being insufficient depth of water for the British frigates.'
 * Okay, changed. --Ykraps (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "prize money". What is this?
 * Linked. --Ykraps (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "the forts there having already been deserted". Does "already" add anything?
 * Okay, removed.--Ykraps (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "Aigle's crew received a share of the spoils". Via prize money, or more informally?
 * Yes, prize money. I simply trying to avoid repeatedly saying prize. I can change if you like. --Ykraps (talk) 08:03, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I would be inclined to repeat "prize", but up to you.
 * Okay, changed. --Ykraps (talk) 08:24, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "Four merchant vessels and the cargoes of 15 others were ... After driving the 20-strong convoy ashore". Four plus 15 ≠ 20.
 * "Four merchant vessels and the cargoes of 15 others were captured". One was not captured. "The remaining vessels could not be taken off, having been scuttled by their crews, and so were destroyed". --Ykraps (talk) 07:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "In accordance with Surveyor of the Navy, Robert Seppings". Why the comma?
 * Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 04:46, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * "only went to sea after as armée en flute or store-ship". I am not entirely sure that I follow this. Also it seems to suggest that armée en flute is the same thing as a store-ship.
 * James does not expand on his theory but presumably he is assuming that she was so badly damaged, she was of no further use as a warship. My reasons for including the footnote were that it was quite interesting and also, possibly, stops readers questioning which ship was which. But I’m quite happy to remove it as it’s not entirely necessary. --Ykraps (talk) 16:37, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
 * In the footnote, is "after" a typo for 'either'? And link en flûte.
 * Ah, gotcha. No, after in this case refers to post engagement. I've rewritten to incorporate 'either' so as to reinforce that this was an either/or thing and not that they were one and the same. --Ykraps (talk) 08:20, 4 October 2022 (UTC)


 * "Does not include shares for property captured during the Walcheren Campaign." What are shares in this context?
 * Shares of the prize money for the capture of property during the campaign. Aigle had no direct involvement in these captures but was entitled to a share simply by being part of the campaign. I've tried to clarify this in the footnote but if you think it's too confusing, I can simply remove. --Ykraps (talk) 07:51, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

And that's it for a first pass. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
 * That looks pretty good. A few further comments above. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:10, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Pickersgill-Cunliffe support

 * Duplicated links: Channel Fleet
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Speaking of the Channel Fleet, a better link might be Western Squadron
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why are many of the citations full book references, while others are short form? Switching between the two isn't very helpful
 * Not sure I've got this right. I would usually only put books in the reference section so Winfield and Rosselli but I've got a feeling you are referring to other citations as well so have also added Clarke & McArthur.[] I looked for some guidance on this but couldn't find anything. Do you have a particular guideline in mind here? --Ykraps (talk) 19:37, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You've done what I was hoping for. I would, by the way, consider the NC a book. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

Back later to add more. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:44, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why describe Henslow as a "naval surveyor", making me think he might be any marine surveyor, when you could link to his true title (which indeed you use later for Seppings)?
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:09, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link main battery
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Move gun deck link to first mention
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link 18-pounder long gun
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link ships of the line
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link French Revolutionary War
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 18:31, 10 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Move keel link to first mention
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 04:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Laying down date can be added to infobox
 * Only have month and year. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It would be useful to include that (per Winfield) Aigle was initially completed on 6 October 1801 to go in ordinary, and was only completed for sea on 24 March 1803
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link carronades
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 04:48, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Per Winfield and Gardiner there are four 9-pounders on the forecastle, not two
 * Oops! Thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 05:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Complement and cost are not mentioned in main text
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link captain
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Per previous comment on completion, the text currently reads as if the ship began active service in December 1802 which isn't quite true
 * I assume this has now been resolved but let me know if you think otherwise. --Ykraps (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link marines
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * at Portland, considering you're linking to the whole isle
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:07, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * While this is not a source review, I note that ref. #13 does not mention Aigle leaving Portland on 10 April
 * Yeah, I can't remember where I got that from. I've checked a few books with no luck so have removed until I can find a source. --Ykraps (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link privateer
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Several examples of unnecessary repetition of the year in dates throughout
 * Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Decide how you're going to introduce ships, e.g. for RN vessels you sometimes include HMS and sometime don't, and sometimes include the guns on a ship and sometime don't
 * I've added the number of guns and the prefix in the first instance only. The MOS says that the prefix should be used on the first mention but omitted thereafter. Where there is a list it is not necessary repeat the prefix because HMS in that case stand for His Majesty's Ships. It is also (I think) the convention to use the ship type on first mention but this is only written in the MOS in reference to article naming. [] [] Nor is it clear how the ships should be described. I use gun numbers because I consider them the most useful but I'm happy to describe Aigle, for example, as a frigate, a fifth rate or of 36 guns. --Ykraps (talk) 19:44, 11 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Link gun boat - of which mentions you have two with hyphens and two without?
 * Some sources hyphenate and others don't, and our article uses gunboat. I've settled on hyphens as gun-brig is hyphenated. I have linked to the article but I find it quite confusing; it describes a gunboat as "...designed for the express purpose of carrying one or more guns to bombard coastal targets, as opposed to those military craft designed for naval warfare. --Ykraps (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "His Majesty's hired armed schooner" - HM hired armed schooner is less of a mouthful
 * Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I don't think it necessary to state that Ushant is in France - you don't provide the country for Vigo, Cordouan, Rochefort, etc
 * Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Mention might be made of Aigle's part in the rescuing of the crew of HMS Magnificent on 25 March 1804 (Grocott, etc)
 * Excellent find! Done. --Ykraps (talk) 15:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Give Sturt his rank (commander) and link it
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Brest
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:05, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Vice Admiral for Ganteaume and Admiral for Cornwallis
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 15:59, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I find linking cruising can be useful
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link fireships
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link boom
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Suggest moving the springs note next to the word in question to make it more obvious - I missed it the first time!
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "replaced in command of the attack" to ensure the reader doesn't think Wolfe has just been given HMS Imperieuse?
 * Good point. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link bomb ketch, gun brig
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Regulus
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:14, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Fort Rammekens can be linked
 * Yeah, never done that before. Do I just insert the template as you've written it? --Ykraps (talk) 16:24, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes, just copy and paste that in as it is. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:20, 15 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Link Zuid-Beveland
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Per Marshall Aigle was in Lord William Stuart's squadron at Walcheren, and the explosion occurred on 11 August
 * Yeah, per James too. Sloppy of me. Bad weather caused delays and the marking of the channel was not completed til 9th then further delays before the squadron moved up river on 11th. Must have glanced at the wrong date. Rewritten to reflect that. --Ykraps (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Add that the bombardment of Flushing was from both land and sea, it wasn't just the ships. (Martin Howard, Walcheren 1809, etc)
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Lillo. You might also use Liefkenshoektunnel for Liefkenshoech, but I realise that's pretty awkward
 * Done Lillo but Liefkenshoech tunnel seems a bit tenuous. --Ykraps (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link dykes
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:43, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Preface Louis with his rank
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * There's a big gap between September 1809 and October 1811. Suggest adding the capture of Phoenix to the main text - Marshall has a good description of it
 * Are you referring to ? If so, whose biography? Is it any better than the description given in the Gazette here?[] --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Wolfe's biography here. The description is similar but worded differently; I'll leave it up to you what sources you choose to use. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Added a paragraph. See what you think. --Ykraps (talk) 20:43, 15 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Add that Aigle only goes to the Mediterranean on 20 November
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Interesting that Winfield has Aigle paid off in 1813?
 * Yeah, I found it difficult to reconcile that with other sources so left it out. I think it unlikely that she returned home, paid off and was then recommissioned under the same captain and returned to the Med. Possibly a typo for 1815? --Ykraps (talk) 15:43, 14 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Give Brisbane his rank
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link scuttled
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 17:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "was obliged to put the guns of Fort Maurizio out of action" this is pretty vague, suggest clarifying exactly how this happened
 * Changed to "...was obliged to fire on Fort Maurizio until its guns were silenced..." --Ykraps (talk) 17:30, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
 * To call Bentinck's force a "Sicilian army" is overstating the issue, it had a considerable British contingent as well (see for example Gerard Gosselin's brigade)
 * Changed to joint British and... --Ykraps (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "invaded and occupied Genoa eight days later" Bentinck had been operating in/around Genoa since at least late February/March?
 * In that case, I assume the source is talking about the city. Changed. --Ykraps (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link vice-admiral
 * Already linked for Vice-Admiral Ganteaume. --Ykraps (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Pellew had been knighted in 1793
 * Added Sir. --Ykraps (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Any clarification for what exactly "naval support" pertains?
 * No. Usual stuff I suspect, naval bombardments, ferrying troops and supplies, then keeping enemy ships at bay. --Ykraps (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This "fleet" Pellew commands is the Mediterranean Fleet!
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 05:22, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Not working chronologically here anymore, but it would be interesting to add that (per Winfield 2014) Aigle's cost would have been £1,000 higher, but the money was deducted as a punishment for the ship being 16 months late!
 * Okay, added. --Ykraps (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Text doesn't make it clear that the middling-large repair of March 1817 was completed in May 1819
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Worth noting that cutting Aigle down also turned her into a sixth rate
 * Okay, done. Although she was already described as 24 guns. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Add that (per Winfield) Aigle is 990 tons bm after the conversion
 * Not sure if that's not a typo. I can't see how cutting a ship down would make her larger so I've left out for now. --Ykraps (talk) 05:02, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Seppings was knighted in 1819
 * Added Sir. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "between March and July 1831"...at Chatham Dockyard?
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 16:37, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Text reads as if she went to the Mediterranean in August, which is impossible when her fitting out was only completed in November
 * Clarified. --Ykraps (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Give Paget his rank
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Per O'Byrne, Paget joins Aigle on 23 August
 * Added. --Ykraps (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Aigle returns home and is paid off on 30 August 1845, which isn't mentioned at all (Winfield 2014)
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Could mention she was sold for £925
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link the Admiralty
 * Already linked in construction section. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * While Aigle was sold to A. W. Howe for breaking up on 26 November 1870, Winfield does not say whether that process was completed in the same month, which I highly doubt. Should be changed in the lede too
 * Clarified. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link broken up
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 05:16, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Her fate can be added to the infobox
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link ships where possible in the table
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:11, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I repeat my aforementioned requests for added links when the words also appear in the lede
 * Let me know if I still haven't got them all. You may have to be more obvious. :) --Ykraps (talk) 17:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Lord Clarence Paget is not "Lord Paget" (per the lede); his title is that of the younger son of a marquess, and as such when shortening his name it would be "Lord Clarence" rather than that which is used here
 * Okay. I thought it was Clarence Lord Paget but I find this sort of thing quite confusing. Just written out in full instead. Hope that's okay. --Ykraps (talk) 17:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Yes that's the correct form. In a nutshell, Clarence is the younger son of a marquess. His older brother, the heir, gets a subsidiary title and in this case was Lord Paget and then Lord Uxbridge. Clarence, and his other lesser siblings, have the honorary title Lord/Lady before their names, but have no title to hand down to their children. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Gardiner (Heavy Frigate p. 89) has Aigle's draught forward as 17 ft and aft 19 ft 4 in. Sailing reports were also make on her on 15 August 1815, which describe her as "Generally similar to Apollo, being fast and weatherly, manoeuvrable and a good sea-boat. Recorded 10kts close-hauled in a topgallant gale and had gone faster (10 1/2 kts) in a stronger whole topsail wind; 12kts with the wind a point abaft the beam was best regular performance. Very roomy but no information on how they stowed 6 months' victuals" (tests having been done with 4 months).
 * I assume you'd like some of this added but before I do so, can you clarify whether the quoted text is from Gardiner's own mouth or the author of the sailing report? Thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 16:34, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Believe that it's a summary of a sailing report written up in Gardiner's own words. You don't have to discuss it all, some might work better in a class article, but at least a mention of her characteristics/speed would be good. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I have one eye toward an Aigle-class article but have added a bit. See what you think. --Ykraps (talk) 19:04, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

That's my first run through complete. Might have more once you've finished with these. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 17:08, 11 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The Franchise captured by Aigle is Franchise, but our article paints her capture a little differently which might be worth looking into
 * Several of the sources say the fleet was "in company". Being in sight was considered being actively involved because it was believed to effect the behaviour of a chase and it was perfectly normal for the prize money to be shared under these circumstances. Whereas it is possible that the fleet had an agreement to share prizes, (this was sometimes done because some vessels had more opportunities than others) I don’t think it was the case here. In addition to the already mentioned "in company", several captures made in the same month by other members of the fleet, do not appear to have been shared. Erring on the side of caution, I have added "Continuing to patrol in home waters with the Channel Fleet, Aigle shared in the prize money for..." --Ykraps (talk) 16:50, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Just a few points I need clarifying before I can proceed. Thanks. --Ykraps (talk) 17:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Have replied above, nudge me if I've missed any queries. Re the confusing Winfield dates/numbers, it might be worth asking him on his talk page. I agree that it might be unwise to include them while there's some uncertainty. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 11:57, 15 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No, you have provided the answers I needed and I've added to the article accordingly. I have sent Rif Winfield an email. Hopefully he can shed some light on those figures and I can add those bits too. --Ykraps (talk) 08:25, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

I have spoken to Rif and he is certain that Aigle paid off in 1813. He isn't sure of when exactly but, in light of the info in the Gazette, thinks it must have been in the latter half of the year. The figure of 990 is also correct. Aigle was not cut down, only her quarter deck and fo'c'sle were removed so would not affect the measurements used to calculate her tonnage. The slight increase in size, he thinks, is due to her sides bulging through settlement. I have added these bits of information to the article. Rif also gave some extra information which because of referencing issues, can't currently be used. If we can find a way to source it correctly, it can be added at a later date but unfortuneatly that can't be done in time for this review. --Ykraps (talk) 06:52, 18 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Alright. Some final quibbles from me:
 * Link Cochrane's rank in the lede
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Remove the trailing zero in the depth of hold figures
 * Okay, done (as you're the second person to ask) --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "upper gun deck" - this suggests Aigle had more than one gun deck, which she didn't
 * No. Another copy and paste error. Removed. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Gundeck or dun deck? Differs between text and infobox
 * Gone with the WP article on this one; gun deck. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link ordinary
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Bow draught doesn't need an inches figure
 * Okay, removed. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * at the stern
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Remove italics from quotation
 * Done. Thought that was the MOS for some reason. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Link Franchise in main text, and can note as a 40-gun frigate
 * Done and done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Move prize money link to first instance
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Still some issues with ship descriptions, e.g. Magnificent doesn't get anything, Gertrude gets "12-gun HM hired armed schooner", and Naiad just gets "36-gun"
 * Okay, I've made a few fixes including Magnificent and Naiad, although I would humbly suggest the latter's RN status could be inferred and therefore, the prefix isn't necessary. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Why do you sometimes drop the "HMS" when listing RN ships?
 * The guidelines say that the prefix should be used on the first use only and omitted thereafter. However, "The prefix need not be given if it is obvious from context (for example, in a list of ships of the Royal Navy there is no need to repeat "HMS")". In addition, an HMS at the front of a list could stand for His Majesty's ships (plural). I also try to avoid using HMS when the vessel in question isn't a fully-rigged-ship as that would technically be incorrect usage. I do, of course, make mistakes so if I've missed anything else, please let me know. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "capturing one gun boat" one non-hyphened gun-boat has slipped through
 * Got them all now, I think. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Main text doesn't have anything for 1806, suggest adding the detention of Jonge Brouwer
 * I'm not sure what I could write other than she was detained. It appears that Aigle's crew got some prize money so perhaps some contraband was confiscated but this isn't obvious from the source. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "on the 28 June"
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * "74-gun HMS Pembroke and the 44-gun Alcmene,"
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 06:48, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You use both Ville de Varsovie and Varsovie, better to stick to one or the other
 * Gone with the former. --Ykraps (talk) 19:12, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:10, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
 * This looks good to me. Pickersgill-Cunliffe (talk) 14:05, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Source review
-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:23, 16 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Is there a reason why you treat Clarke (1809) as an 1809 publication, with the fact that it's a reprint noted in the edition field, but for Clowes give the reprint date as the publication date, and use orig-year to indicate that it's a reprint? There are a couple of other examples of one or other of these approaches in the list of references.  Is there any reason not to make these consistent?
 * No. Just a bit of sloppy copy and paste rather than writing them out again. Done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Missing publisher location for Demerliac (2004).
 * Done. Added Nice, France. --Ykraps (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * For the publisher locations that are not widely known (i.e. London & Oxford are well-known but Barnsley is not) suggest giving the country as part of the location field.
 * Okay, done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Henry (2004) and Henderson(2011) are out of alphabetical order.
 * Good spot, done. --Ykraps (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Can you comment on the use of the older sources? I'm aware that naval history does sometimes use older material, but can you confirm the reliability (in the eyes of modern naval historians) of Clarke, Clowes, James, Marshall, Morgan, and O'Byrne?
 * They are, per Wikipedia, reliable secondary and tertiary sources, and are routinely commented on by more modern historians such as Lambert, Hore and Gardiner. And, I believe, Lambert wrote the forward to many of the reprints. In addition, they are used to support facts only, not to bolster an opinion or a point of view. Fairly sure they are standard reference for articles on this subject, including some featured ones. --Ykraps (talk) 16:44, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Pass. Fixes and replies all look good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 17:03, 17 October 2022 (UTC)

Coord note
Hi although I know the interests of the three MilHist reviewers are pretty diverse, I'd feel more comfortable if someone outside the MilHist fraternity could give this the once-over to help ensure accessibility to the wider audience. Mike or Tim, would either of you have a bit of time for this one? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 20:09, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I probably wouldn't get to it for at least three or four days, so I'll defer to Tim if he's available. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:56, 24 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Although I write in the MilHist community, you are the only editor here that I know. I have the standard American ignorance of European history; I do not recognize a single one of the campaigns noted. My knowledge of sailing vessels is pretty much limited to info gained from the Hornblower novels. So, do I satisfy your want ad for a "naive" volunteer reviewer?Georgejdorner (talk) 04:45, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Hi George, pls go for it...! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:26, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments SUPPORT from Georgejdorner
At times, I may comment on an item not realizing it is acceptable British usage. A reply of "British English" will suffice for me to strike the comment.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Construction and armament


 * No infelicities found.Georgejdorner (talk) 23:09, 27 October 2022 (UTC)

Service


 * Para 3 - What type of ships were Charente and Joie?
 * Charente was a fully-rigged-ship and joie, a brig. Added. --Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Or do you mean, were they warxhips or merchant ships? --Ykraps (talk) 06:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No, they are obviously warships. Additions appreciated.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:12, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Action off Groix


 * Para 2 - Mentioning the French frigates' names will enhance the readability of the para. The reader also needs the nationality or identity of the grounding frigate to clarify the action.


 * The names, Italienne and Sirene, and nationality are given in the opening sentence. Was that missed or do you want them repeated somewhere? The identity of the grounded frigate isn't known and this is explained in a footnote but I could weave that into the text if necessary. --Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)


 * The names are indeed mentioned in the opening sentence of para 1. However, I find para 2 vague and ambiguous.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:16, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Battle of Basque Roads


 * Para 2, 2nd sentence - It is my understanding that a ship would be anchored on springs to allow it a greater field of fire. Did that advantage come into play in this battle? Is that why the British ships anchored in a crescent?Georgejdorner (talk) 23:48, 27 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I am assuming that the French ships grounded side on, hence the need for springs. Without them, the tide would have held the British ships bow on to their targets, unable to present their broadside. Unfortunately the sources go into such detail and the precise reason isn't given. --Ykraps (talk) 06:09, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I've added a bit. See what you think. --Ykraps (talk) 06:21, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * If it's not in sources, then that's the end of it.
 * However, common sense dictates the ability to shift the direction of gunnery fire as an obvious advantage.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:23, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Walcheren Campaign


 * Para 2, 4th sentence - Something's missing here. What is the significance of the 5,700 French troops?Georgejdorner (talk) 05:59, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It was under French control. Now added. --Ykraps (talk) 06:29, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Ah, reinforcements. I see now.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I notice Wikipedia's Napoleonic wars article lists Nederlands as a British ally, which may have been true of the government in exile but not the Dutch people, who, in the main, were on the side of the French. --Ykraps (talk) 06:40, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Neither of which facts were previously known to me, ignorant Yankee that I am.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Last para - Is the Phoenix a privateer then? Or is she a seaborne mercenary? Georgejdorner (talk) 06:03, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * I would say that a mercenary is paid irrespective whereas a privateer takes a share of the spoils if there are any. Is she described as a mercenary? --Ykraps (talk) 06:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Upon re-reading, I came upon mention of the letter of marque, which means she was a privateer. Comment struck.

Mediterranean Service


 * First para - Are the types known for the scuttled ships?Georgejdorner (talk) 06:12, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * No. Again, sources don't say. --Ykraps (talk) 06:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Fair enough.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Post-war and fate Postwar fate?
 * The hyphen is an Engvar thing. I like the post-war fate suggestion but the style seems to be to have a section about the ship's fate. I've changed to post-war service and ... --Ykraps (talk) 06:57, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The Engvar is obviously correct here. However, it's the 'and' that I was questioning as superfluous. Your change makes this moot.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Para 1, sentences 3 & 4 - Is there any connection behind this shipyard renovation and the frigate's earlier battle damage in the same location?Georgejdorner (talk) 06:21, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * It's more likely to be wear and tear caused by the length of time at sea but sources don't say. --Ykraps (talk) 09:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Again, no source, no fact(s).Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)


 * Last para - How can a sunken ship be sold off and scrapped?Georgejdorner (talk) 06:21, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * She would have been recovered first. I believe the waters to have been shallow enough to make this worthwhile. Added as much as I can without straying into OR territory. --Ykraps (talk) 07:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Well, yeah, she had to be salvaged. I just thought that might be more info lurking in your sources.Georgejdorner (talk)

Prizes


 * Is it possible to differentiate between full or partial prizes?
 * Table is very nicely done.Georgejdorner (talk) 06:28, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Because sources aren't always terribly clear on that point, there is a danger of accidentally entering into OR. --Ykraps (talk) 07:13, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * You can only go as far as your sources take you.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:43, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Lead


 * Para 2, sentence 2 - Should more accurately read, "...Aigle went on to help force the surrender of the stranded ships-of-the-line..." if the description in the main text is to be believed.Georgejdorner (talk) 06:43, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Done. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Summary: A very informative article, one containing a great depth of fact without becoming overwhelming. I found little to comment upon, and to even pick those nits I really had to chase the dog.Georgejdorner (talk) 06:53, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Thanks for doing this. I have answered your queries but there are a couple of points you may want to discuss further. --Ykraps (talk) 07:18, 29 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Actually, I was quite satisfied by your answers. I'm voting Support.Georgejdorner (talk) 20:46, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 23:04, 29 October 2022 (UTC)