Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Heaven Upside Down/archive1

Heaven Upside Down

 * Nominator(s): Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:32, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

This article is about Marilyn Manson's tenth studio album Heaven Upside Down. It has recently gone through GA and peer reviews, and I believe it meets the FA criteria. Would appreciate any feedback at all. Thanks. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:32, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Lee Vilenski
I may end up claiming points towards the wikicup. Hope you don't mind! :P|

I'll take a look at this article, and give some comments on how it meets the FA criteria in a little while. If you fancy doing some QPQ, I have a list of items that can be looked at here - specifically FACs for 2020 World Snooker Championship and 1984 World Snooker Championship Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC) More to come...
 * Perhaps link/mention what scoring is in the lede? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * entry on Billboard's Mainstream Rock... chart. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Manson was injured on two occasions during the Heaven Upside Down Tour; an incident wherein he was crushed by a large stage prop resulted in the rescheduling of an entire leg of the tour.... and, the second? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Heaven Upside Down Tour; he injured his ankle after jumping off the stage at one concert, and was crushed by a large stage prop at another. - how about "Heaven Upside Down Tour; injuring his ankle jumping from the stage at one concert, and was crushed by a large stage prop at another." - any ideas what he did to his ankle? Can we say he broke/sprained his ankle? Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski  (talk • contribs) 18:48, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Celebritarian art movement - reword to avoid the easteregg/WP:SEAOFBLUE. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * You pipe to a redirect of Audio mastering Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Another instance of two links not seperated at stage IV colorectal cancer. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 16:51, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Three days later, Manson announced he had "decided to part ways" with Twiggy, after the bassist had been accused of sexual assault by a former girlfriend, Jack Off Jill vocalist Jessicka, - as we aren't really talking about this person in terms of music, could we use their full name? Perhaps "decided to part ways" with Twiggy, after the bassist had been accused of sexual assault by a former girlfriend, Jessicka Addams, who was the vocalist for alternative rock band Jack Off Jill." Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski  (talk • contribs) 17:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Roger Joseph Manning, Jr. - no comma. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Track Listing contains two duplicate links. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * I've done a first pass of the article. It's in great shape, I've left a few comments. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 17:00, 24 September 2020 (UTC)


 * Thanks so much for the commentary, I figured this would get the usual responses from the GA and PR reviewers, but that it would take at least another month before any other user commented. Genuinely wasn't expecting this so soon, so I'm sorry for the delay. I've [hopefully] resolved all these comments, but let me know if you're not happy with my rephrasing and I'll have another go. Looking forward to any future commentary. I really don't know anything about snooker, but I'll see where I can help out with your current projects over the next few days. Thanks again. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 22:54, 25 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Rest looks fine, I've added an additional comment. Best Wishes,  Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 18:48, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * After further research, it appears he tore the ligament of his left ankle when he jumped off the stage. Added this to the article. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:17, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I believe I've rectified all your comments. Let me know if there's anything more I can do. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:00, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Image review

 * Suggest adding alt text
 * File:Marilyn_Manson_-_We_Know_Where_You_Fucking_Live.ogg has the wrong fair-use tag and is longer than permitted by Wp:SAMPLE given the length of the original. Also the purpose of use is poor: if it's being used only to demonstrate the lyrical content, that could be done with quotes from the song rather than a full sample. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:46, 26 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Added alt text to all images, and have removed the sound sample. Will request it be deleted ASAP. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:17, 27 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I added a di-orphaned fair use tag to the sound file several days ago. Should be deleted by October 5th, should no one object. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:00, 30 September 2020 (UTC)

Comments from Aoba47
I am leaving this up as a placeholder. These are three comments that I have noticed during a brief re-read. I will look through the article again and post any further comments by the end of the week. Please ping me if I do not get back to this by the end of Saturday for whatever reason. Hope you are having a great start to your week! Aoba47 (talk) 20:00, 28 September 2020 (UTC)
 * I have been told in a previous FAC that the "the" in a band or group name should be lowercase. So, "former The Mars Volta bassist" should be "former the Mars Volta bassist". I'd recommend checking the article as a whole to avoid this. There are other instances like The Beatles instead of the Beatles. This is per MOS:THEMUSIC.
 * In the "Critical reception" section, I would not put the star ratings in the prose, as done for "ABC News rated the album 3.5 stars out of 5" and "Singapore's The Straits Times awarded it 3.5 stars out of five". This information is already present in the "Professional ratings" table, and it would be benefit the reader more to focus on what the reviewer said. The numbers should be kept for the first paragraph for the aggregator, but I personally do not find them helpful in the other paragraphs.
 * Should the lead mention that the album charted in other countries? Right now, it only mentions the Billboard 200 placement.
 * Thanks for commenting Aoba47. I've resolved all the title-case instances of 'The' throughout the article, except for Twins of Evil: The Second Coming Tour, which I believe is correct (per MOS:CT). I've also removed the ABC News and The Strait Times ratings, although neither of those appear in the professional ratings table, and added info on the album's commercial performance in Australia, Spain and the United Kingdom. Looking forward to the rest of your comments. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:00, 30 September 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your responses. I will look through the article again tomorrow and add any further comments then. Aoba47 (talk) 02:40, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Wonderful work with the article. Once my comments are addressed, I will support this for promotion. If possible, I would greatly appreciate any feedback on my current peer review which is about a song from very different artist lol. I hope you are doing well and that you find these comments to be helpful. Aoba47 (talk) 05:24, 2 October 2020 (UTC)
 * For this part, (Courtney Love and Lisa Marie Presley appear in "Tattooed in Reverse".), I'd put video or music video at the end or something like (appear in the video for "Tattooed in Reverse) to just clarify this. I know that is already rather obvious from the context of the sentence, but I'd say it is worthwhile to clarify that they appear in a music video.
 * I think we discussed this before so apologies for bringing it up again. I am uncertain of the wikilink in this part: (In August 2012, it was announced Manson) I'd use the full name Marilyn Manson instead for further clarification. Something about cutting off the first name seems odd to me.
 * I am not sure if the following sentence is really needed: (In August 2012, it was announced Manson would play a fictionalized version of himself in the sixth season of Californication.) This information could be folded into the second sentence by changing it something like: (Manson met the score composer of Californication, Tyler Bates, while playing a fictionalized version of himself in the sixth season finale in 2013). Unless the August 2012 date is important for any reason, I'm not sure it is really necessary to say when Manson's guest star role was first publicly announced.
 * This is more of a clarification question, but did Manson ever provide a reason for the album title's change from Say10 to Heaven Upside Down. It is rather common for albums to change titles during production (and often without any public explanation given), but I was just curious if there was a reason given for this. If not, then it is completely fine.
 * Explained later in the article, with the sentence beginning "I was going to call the record SAY10, but I didn't feel that that defined the album..." I suspect some people may complain about the amount of Manson quotes contained in the article, but it is especially hard to paraphrase some of Manson's witticisms/hyperbole without the paraphrase coming across as undue weight. Such is the case here. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * For this part, (and compared its lyrics to those of Holy Wood (In the Shadow of the Valley of Death),), I'd add the year the album was released as you have done for The Pale Emperor in the previous section.
 * I am uncertain if the soundtrack covers, ("Stigmata", "God's Gonna Cut You Down" and "Cry Little Sister"), are relevant to this particular article. They may have been released during "the album's promotional cycle", but none of them are included on the album or have direct ties to this album. Information about them seems more relevant to Manson's main page.
 * They were all produced by Bates, and at least 2 of them were recorded during the Heaven Upside Down sessions ("Stigmata" & "God's Gonna Cut You Down"). All work subsequent to this album was produced by Shooter Jennings. Have been procrastinating somewhat about Marilyn Manson (band): it needs some major refinement/deletion, so have been loathed to add more content to it. I figured it was best to perfect that article after I finally got around to bringing all his album articles to GA or better. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * I've resolved all these issues, except for the two I've responded to above. Let me know what you think. If you disagree, I'll reword. And I've just finished my FA review for another user, so will hopefully be able to get to "Candy" tomorrow. Looks like Storm Alex is gonna be an ass, so unless it does something stupid like disrupt my internet, I should have plenty of free time tomorrow evening. ;) Hope you're keeping well too. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 01:18, 3 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing everything, and I agree with your responses above. I hope you stay safe, and hopefully your internet does not get disrupted too much. I support this article for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 02:50, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Coord notes
I've added this to the Urgents list in hope of getting more feedback. At almost a month on the list and no activity since 3 October, it will need to be archived soon if we don't see some movement. -- Laser brain  (talk)  15:29, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks. I've been asking around, but no luck so far. Hopefully soon. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 22:33, 23 October 2020 (UTC)
 * If a few days pass without any luck, I can possible recuse and review. Please ping me if I forget. -- Laser brain  (talk)  22:57, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

Support from HĐ
— HĐ (talk) 03:41, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * The events leading up to the album's delay are rather sprawling for the lead imo.
 * Ditto with the musicians that did not work on the album. I'd focus on those who did only
 * with multiple publications saying it continued the creative resurgence that began with their previous album, although others criticized the violent lyrical content → a little bit off-grammar here?
 * Terms like "as well" are superfluous imo
 * I'd indicate which positions the album charted in Australia, Spain and the UK (top 10? 20?)
 * Kinda off-topic for the lead to discuss Manson's injuries. A summary sentence i.e. Manson suffered from a few injuries which delayed the tour should be fine
 * Thanks for the commentary, I believe I've done all this. Let me know what you think of the current version of the lead. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)

Background
 * Any info why the album was renamed?
 * I don't think As with The Pale Emperor, is the accurate expression here
 * I'm seeing quite too many quotes here. Consider paraphrase some them. For example, I would summarize the confrontation between Manson and Bates into one-two sentences (something like Bates thought that the incident was because of him leaving the tour, which allegedly left Manson unhappy. The two had a violent confrontation on stage: Manson broke beer bottles and pulled out a box-cutter knife threatening Bates, to which he replied "You fucking come near me and I'll kill you with that box cutter" My suggestion is not perfect though
 * Any info on the previous album, The Pale Emperor (i.e. musical styles?)

Composition
 * Probably a discussion on Antichrist Superstar and Mechanical Animals would be useful hear to help readers understand how comparable this album is to the two
 * I think the reason why Manson renamed the album should be in the previous section

Release
 * If I remember correctly, "latter" is only used for two objects
 * I am not sure if the Instagram promotional videos are noteworthy here, as it is rather too detailed

Promotion
 * I see that this section is organized chronologically. I'd prefer grouping into "themes", like, a paragraph for the singles and videos, a paragraph for tours etc. It's maybe just my preference because the flow right now is rather puzzling, but I'm open to discussion on this

Critical reception
 * I think you don't need to include scores from the aggregate review sites in the prose.
 * I'm seeing quite a few unconventional sources here! (i.e. Bloody Disgusting, Metal Injection...) Alas, some parts of this section are filled with quotes, specifically the paragraph that focuses on the album's lyricism

Commercial performance
 * I don't think debut sales figures are notable. Probably you'd find WP:CHARTTRAJ helpful
 * Overall, the dominant issue that I'm seeing here is quote overuse, which should be easily resolved. There are some parts that delve into excessive details i.e. the Instagram videos in the Promotion section, the debut sales figures in the Commercial performance section, which should also be a piece of cake. All in all the article is well written, and once my concerns are addressed I'm happy to place my support, HĐ (talk) 08:17, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Sorry about the delay in responding HĐ. Been busy reviewing other articles. I've made some progress with regards to your suggested changes, but am nowhere near finished. I'll ping you here once I'm happy with the work I've done, which will probably be Saturday or Sunday. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:27, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

Hey Sorry about the delay. What do you think of the article now? I've done pretty much everything you said above, except removing Bloody Disgusting from the article. It's a primo source for film/music news. Plus, the band did an exclusive interview with the publication, containing info not found in any other source, so it would have been pretty difficuly to remove altogether. But Metal Injection is now gone. Plus, I didn't think prose about Antichrist Superstar and Mechanical Animals would improve the article, so have rephrased the paragraph in 'Composition'. Also removed a few quotes. Also rewrote 'Promotion and singles' per your suggestion, mostly. The first 3 paragraphs of that section now focus on commentary of their live performances, but I felt like there was a narrative naturally working its way out following the 3rd paragraph. The next 2 paragraphs then move onto singles/music videos, before snaking back around to late 2018/2019 commentary. Unfortunately, most rock band articles have to make do with debut sales figures. Even articles about consistently huge selling and critically acclaimed acts like Metallica have to focus mostly on debut performance. Let me know if you're not happy with my rework, and I'll try again. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:41, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * Overall I am happy with your edits. Thank you for your explanations, and I concur with them mostly. I am still not convinced with the debut sales figures listed at the "Commercial performance" section. Probably that's fine for Billboard figures, but I don't understand why sales figures are selected for certain countries—Spain, France, Australia, NZ, Japan. I'd like to see some summary style i.e. The album peaked in the top 10 in countries including..., HĐ (talk) 05:31, 2 November 2020 (UTC)
 * The sales figures used in the section were all I could find. I'd love to include as much sales info as humanly possible, but verified SoundScan Data is hard to come by, unless you're selling tens of millions albums every time like Taylor Swift or Adele. That being said, I've added a summary style sentence to the section. Let me know what you think. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 00:18, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * A small comment: I'd like to remove exactly half the amount The Pale Emperor debuted with two years earlier. because it sounds like WP:SYNTH for me. Otherwise, I am happy to support this article for promotion. You've done a great job with the article, and I appreciate your patience with my review. Good luck with the FAC, HĐ (talk) 04:12, 3 November 2020 (UTC)
 * I removed the quoted text. And thank you for the review. The article has definitely improved as a result. Good luck with your own nomination. ;) Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 23:43, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Support by DWB
Argh, did a bunch of notes and accidentally clicked the X and it didn't ask for my permission to close :(. I'm not an expert in FA-Level Album articles, but I am always disappointed when I go to an article for a song and it isn't very in depth, so it is nice to see some effort put in here.
 * I'm not sure if its an actual guideline but I've been told in the past that the lead should ideally be 4 paragraphs. I think there is some bloat we can cut out here to make it an even 4. Here are some potential trim suggestions.
 * Potential trim - " Longtime bassist Twiggy did not take part in recording sessions, despite Manson initially suggesting he would. Twiggy departed the group soon after the album was issued after a sexual assault allegation was made against him by a former girlfriend from the 1990s." to "Despite Manson's early implications, his long-time bassist Twiggy did not participate on the album. He left the group following sexual assault allegations by a former girlfriend."
 * Another possible trim as we already know the release date of the album by this point - ""We Know Where You Fucking Live" preceded the album as its lead single on September 11, followed by "Kill4Me" nine days later, which became the band's highest-peaking entry on Billboard's Mainstream Rock Chart." to "We Know Where You Fucking Live" was released as a single in September, shortly followed by "Kill4Me", which became the band's highest-peaking entry on Billboard's Mainstream Rock Chart."
 * "The music videos from the album featured celebrities including Johnny Depp, Courtney Love, and Lisa Marie Pressley". The single "Tattooed in Reverse" also charted on Mainstream Rock, making Heaven Upside Down their first album since 1998's Mechanical Animals to chart more than one song.", again we don't need to get into specifics here.
 * Personally I think that bit about the box cutter incident is interesting enough to include in the main text rather than a note, but I won't hold up a support over it. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 11:09, 26 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Thanks I made your suggested changes to the lead in tandem with the changes suggested by HĐ in the section above, and incorporated the note into the main text. Let me know what you think. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:29, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Looks and reads much better there Homeostasis, and anecdotes like the box cutter thing are what make the celebrity world so interesting so I'm glad you decided to include it. I'm happy with the changes and will support this. One thing you might have overlooked though is there is still a "notes" section in the references section, but no notes. Might be worth removing that unless you are adding more notes. Good luck. Darkwarriorblake / SEXY ACTION TALK PAGE! 09:22, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
 * Resolved. Thanks for the review, and sorry about the delay in responding. Homeostasis07 (talk/contributions) 02:27, 30 October 2020 (UTC)

-- Laser brain  (talk)  15:48, 5 November 2020 (UTC)