Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Henry Hoʻolulu Pitman/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 23:47, 30 December 2015.

Henry Hoʻolulu Pitman

 * Nominator(s): KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

This article is about a Hawaiian-American Union Army soldier who is considered one of the "Hawaiʻi Sons of the Civil War"; he was among a group of more than one hundred documented Hawaiian and Hawaii-born combatants who fought in the American Civil War while the Kingdom of Hawaii was still an independent nation. In recent years, he has become one of the many central figures of interest in a revival of interest of this period of Hawaiian history. This article was nominated as a good article and has been peer reviewed. Basically, everything known in the sources directly about this individual is already in the article itself, so there are some questions that I won't be able to answer because no known knowledge exist about it. KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:04, 26 November 2015 (UTC)

Image review
 * Since the US does not have freedom of panorama for sculpture, you'll need to explicitly account for the licensing status of the works pictured in File:Pitman_family_marker,_Mount_Auburn_Cemetery_(4402353191).jpg, File:Henry_Pitman_Grave_1.jpg, and File:Honolulu-memorial-Hawaiisonsofthecivilwar.JPG. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:54, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * What exactly do you mean "explicitly account for the licensing status of the works"? I have no knowledge of anything related to the monument beyond what it says and that it is in Mount Auburn Cemetery. It might be easier to remove it because there no further knowledge I can provide about its licensing status.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 18:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Essentially, we want to know the copyright status of these monuments. Are the creators and dates of creation known? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:01, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The creators and dates of creation are not known. I don't think information such as creators/dates of creation are known for most personal markers like these. In light of this, should they all be removed from the article? --KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:38, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Not necessarily. For most gravestones we actually do know the date of creation - in most cases they were created around the time of the subject's death. Is that true here, as far as we know? If so, the gravestone would be PD due to age (pre-1923 display in the US). The Civil War memorial may be more of an issue, depending on what we know about it. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:07, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * My guess is the family marker dates to 1951 or after (after Christiana S. Pitman's death). I have no knowledge of the gravestone with the shield, although I am guessing that it may be a later addition, a posthumously petitioned gravestone in the 20th century since it has the shield emblem on it. The plaque was created around 2010 but the creator is not known to me.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 21:00, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Okay...is there any possibility of finding out more information? Something 20th-century could still be PD, and the plaque could also be PD if it were a federal government work, but without details it's hard to know. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I don't think there is anyway to find any more information besides the stuff I already presented, so I was thinking of just removing the problematic images to save all the trouble. The plaque to my knowledge was sponsored by Oahu Cemetery Association and Hawaii Civil War Round Table, a Civil War interest group in Hawaii, and they paid someone or a company to make the plaque for around $3500. The copyright would probably be in the hand of the unnamed/unknown maker or unnamed/unknown plaque company, so it isn't a federal government work. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:04, 27 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've changed it to an image of the mausoleum instead which is as a building is exempt under 17 USC 120(a).
 * Okay, looks good on images now. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:32, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Question on the main image. Why is the link to the source...not actually showing the full image that is being used on Wikipedia?--Mark Miller (talk) 04:01, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The source link supports that the portrait is held by the museum. It would be nice to link to the full portrait on the museum website, if it includes a digital gallery, but not all museums provide that - haven't checked if this one does. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:28, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It seems odd to have a link in this manner, simply demonstrating the museum when the other works from the museum do not have such a link and there is actually a proper template for that. Links in the summary for "source" should be the actual source the digital image was taken. If the author of the image itself was the uploader it should indicate that. If it came from a digital repository, it should indicate that. Source is not the museum, it is where the digital version comes from unless they are the same (such as the Museum's digital library). This makes verification very difficult if not impossible. All of the images appear to be in the public domain, but the images themselves do not appear to have any explanation to the actual source of the image itself. I have many images of works from Crocker Art Museum here in Sacramento, that makes the source for the image the uploader or "own work" not the museum. But if the digital image is taken from, let us say Flickr" then the source will show the link to the page on Flickr the image was uploaded from. This is a part of the FA criteria for image use policy. I believe this needs to be cleared on all the images so we know the actual source.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:09, 11 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I agree that using the "proper template" would be nice, though it's not a requirement. But I can't agree that "own work" would be an appropriate notation. Wikipedia policy is that faithful reproductions of 2D works do not warrant their own copyright. The original source of this image is a portrait held by the Peabody Museum - whether the uploader went there to snap a picture or just downloaded an image from Flickr. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The "proper template' is just the institution template. It isn't required in anyway, but will likely be added by another editor or myself at Commons for convenience. The requirement here is the source of the digital image which is "essential information". It is required for uploading to know the original publication date of the image...not the painting. The source is required as to where the image came from, whether that is "own work" (as is indicated by guidelines) or from an online source. The source is the person, group or entity that scanned, digitized or photographed the image.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:07, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Own Work" is indeed the source if...and only if the uploader actually took the photo. We already know that an image that is under the license of "public domain" can be used in the US without a "sweat of the brow" law, however, attribution must never be substituted. The source is proper attribution to the person, group or entity that created the digital work. "Own work" is used if the image was photographed or scanned by an user. It does not indicate authorship. That remains with the original author, but Wikipedia insists that image files have proper ways to verify date of publication and source...as to how we (Wikipedia) have acquired the digital image.--Mark Miller (talk) 02:31, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't agree, though perhaps it's a matter of terminology. If I take a photo of a photo, that doesn't make the resulting photo my own work, under either US law (which for a US photo of a US painting for a US website is all that matters) or Wikipedia policy - I just reproduced it. By the same token, if I directly upload a photo taken by someone else, I've still reproduced it, and it's still not my work. And no, we don't need to know the publication date of the image, since the creation of the image doesn't generate a new copyright. It's the date of the original painting that matters. If you want to add a template or more details that's great, but it seems very silly to nominate for deletion a painting that you agree is in the public domain. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I do believe part of this is terminology. "Own Work" is only the source and is mentioned in the guidelines as to who the originating image comes from. Yes...I took this image:
 * St Sebastian PNG.png and am the "Source/photographer". I must attribute myself for the digital image. But this is NOT the case here. The image was provided in a manner that, for some reason, seems to be outside the norm and is not being attributed to a proper source yet. Hopefully it will. It isn't that hard and I don't see there being any reason for the information to be held back.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:59, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Support on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. That was easy, and an enjoyable read. - Dank (push to talk) 01:20, 30 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Comment by Mark Miller - On my initial review of the article the first note concerns me. All notes must be referenced and supported by an inline citation however, the note starts off with a comment that cannot be supported by any reference and is only the editor's original research and comment on the sources itself. I will read further but that gives me pause off the bat.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:12, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Further review of the first claim appears to also be original research and based off the editor's own analysis [edit for clarification] of the image of the marker [primary sources] and does not come from any source itself. When I went to the single secondary source used for the claim, it is merely a listing of the name rank etc. and makes none of the claims being made. Primary sources should only be used for the content that can be specifically seen to be in the source and nothing else, such as the following line: In the 1860 United States Census, his name is recorded as "Henry Pitman".[7]. Straightforward and only contains the attribution and the exact content with no additional comment or analysis.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:18, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The sentence before does the same. There is no additional comment or synthesis of the primary source. The inscription on gravestone itself is a primary source not my observations, and as I discussed with other user is a reliable alternative to using Find a Grave. The two sources to the enlistment records are the same and contains the the exact spelling in the records with no additional comment or analysis.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:26, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge."
 * I am aware of the guideline. Thank you. But again, the opening sentence is not supported by the primary source references and has no secondary source. It is your analysis of the primary sources and is a misuse of primary sources to pile them on without a secondary source for the claim. And we have been through this as well as the above issue of "Freedom of panorama" using graves stones that cannot be dated. Only the specific descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source. I do not find directional description an issue. My bad. I corrected that.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:53, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Specifically, you need to lose the ''"His name is given in various ways in the sources" portion of the note.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:55, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Wording is an issue. The way you have "In Hawaii..." is analysis. But just saying "Hawaiian publications.." is not, just specific to the content.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:56, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * In Hawaii is citing the publication place of the primary source, which can be found in the publication information at the front of these books or in the front pages of newspapers. I disagree that saying sources disagree is synthesis or original research, a point which I like to hear other users' opinion on. But anyway, the disagreement of spelling and age can be sourced to Vance's and Manning's biography of Pitman in the NPS book. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:21, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "In Hawaii" is analysis of the primary source and constitutes original research by telling the reader that only a specific location regards the subject in this manner. The primary sources do not state that. But if you feel an argument is required as a comeback to all who disagree (as does seem to be the indication so far) I will stop further discussion and review the article as a whole and leave a single post with all of the concerns that I feel hold this article back from Feature status. If you truly want this article to make FA status, try to heed some of the reviews as right now I am strictly for ...


 * Decline for FA status - Initial review finds too much original research and abuse of primary sources. I will review the entire article for specific issues but for now, I feel the article is lacking in enough ways to not support.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:32, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for you assessment. I don't agree but that isn't odd.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:36, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * What is odd is your understanding of Wikipedia guidelines and policy (especially in regards to images, primary sources and use of secondary sourcing....and that is vital), which is why I was surprised to see you nominate an article. Hold your thanks until I actually give a full review. Since you seem firm on not making any changes suggested and seem to argue and question all posts, I am not sure you are even ready to nominate an article to FA yet.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:58, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I don't think your suggestions are in anyway legitimate which is why I won't make the changes I see as unnecessary. I am not sure you are event qualified to make legitimate reviews based on the qualities of articles you have written or heavily edited, although if the points are legitimate I will make the change. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 06:04, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Then you fail the most important part of FAC. Respect the opinion of the reviewing editors. All you want to do is argue your opinion or your OR. Fine, then write a blog or create your own Wiki. I at least have one FA article. Whether or not you see that as qualifications for review only goes to demonstrate the manner in which you try to discredit both sources and editors outside policy and guidelines. Frankly, your scores of articles based on your original research disturbs me greatly, as it should all editors that review your articles for fact based content but you continue to improve and, as I have stated before, you are still a net plus for Wikipedia in general....but maybe not for FA at this point.--Mark Miller (talk) 06:20, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

The article has a few issues that do not appear to have been addressed during the October GA review. This might have something to do with the lack of discussion with the original FA nomination. Before the article can listed as FA, it first must meet all the standards and criteria that were not address in the last review and the criteria for Featured Article status.--Mark Miller (talk) 22:05, 11 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Instead editing the article, please suggested the changes below like all the reviewers have done. I saw problems with your changes.
 * 1. The Pitman house image has potential copyright issues as addressed before by Nikkimaria. It was printed in a 1931 book by Almira Pitman but is undated so can potentially still have copyright problems if made after 1923. The Pitman had their third son in Hilo; his brother's gravestone at Mount Auburn, and Pitman's stepmother died in Hilo as well, and primary sources discussed in Merry's book state Pitman didn't sell his Hilo house to Spencer until he left for Boston.
 * 2. There is no rationale for using Hawaiian language term titles with Ke Aliʻi (The Noble). This is clearly your mode of translating the title across Wikipedia in articles you've edit which no historians or other wiki editors even have adopted at all; the sources I used for this article that speaks about Pitman's life use the term high chiefess or high chief to refer to his Hawaiian ancestors so it should reflect what the sources say. Included among these is "After fifty years: an appreciation, and a record of a unique incident" written by Henry's sister-in-law and the recent publications by Manning and Vance, Hawaiian historians in this period of history. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 02:36, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Please be accurate with accusations, especially when discussing what other reviewers have done. I have reverted some of your edits as the talk page makes it clear you are not supported by the deprecated use of "chief" and "High Chief", which is not the proper titles of Hawaiian nobility. Translations by missionaries almost two hundred years ago have since been updated. Basically you are calling the subject an Indian. That is not appropriate.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "Translations by missionaries almost two hundred years ago" & "Basically you are calling the subject an Indian" - by whom? You are establishing a link between the word chief and Indian which is racist and sourceless to say the least. You are claiming the missionary translation has been updated, yet you do not demonstrate the sources to back thisot up. The scholarship in the Hawaiian community still commonly uses the English translation "chief" or "chiefess" to translate the term Ali'i; show me one person/scholar/source who translates it as "the noble" word for word. The talk page discussion was regarding the English spelling "chiefess" which is not found in certain dictionaries not the Hawaiian translation. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:33, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * "You are establishing a link between the word chief and Indian which is racist and sourceless to say the least." Excuse me...but did you accuse me of racism through my text because you don't understand the Hawaiian term "ali'i" translates as "Noble". I don't need a source to use the term that has been established as accurate for nearly as long as the mistranslation to "chief" because of the misunderstanding of what an "Indian" is to missionaries of two hundred years ago. And yes...it is a term that can be referenced. Ke Ali'i is a formal term of position or title. The word "Ke" is used instead of "Ka" in formal titles. Hawaii didn't have a "king" until David Kalakaua because he was the first to use the only Hawaiian (Mauai) term for King...Moi. So, if you are trying to create an FA article, yes, I actually object to the term "Chief" and 'Chiefess" as inaccurate and one other editor on the talk page agrees. You should probably strike that out. it certainly "irritates" me and seems to be a personel attack.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:01, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Your making a controversial claim of mistranslation and connotations which have no sources. Your claiming chief and chiefess are mistranslations and confused/link Hawaiians to American Indians without any sources. Please, provide sources that this (mistranslation and connotation) is the majority scholarly consensus in Hawaiian historiography and that there is any rationale (in the majority scholarship and historiography) to reject chief/chiefess and use Ke Alii (The Noble) instead because of your expressed reasons. Also find me a list of scholarly sources that translates Ke Ali'i as "The Noble" (word for word) and also simultaneously rejects the translation chief/chiefess as well because of connotation with American Indians. You are making claims and interpretations ("Hawaii didn't have a "king" until David Kalakaua because he was the first to use the only Hawaiian (Mauai) term for King...Moi") without sources; this last point about Kalakaua is also irrelevant here so I won't discuss it. Wikipedia should reflect what the academic sources state and has no room for opinions or interpretations.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:13, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No. I don't have to do any of that. If you feel there has been racism than you need to contact an administrator or file a complaint at ANI. I am not making a controversial claim. This is a talk page. I made no such claim in the article and if I should ever need to do such...yeah, it can be sourced but this is a very simple matter. You used the term chief and high chiefess and someone else reverted you and I said that the best route was to use the proper term: Ali'i wahine, that the other editor already mentioned. You are making a mountain out of a mole hill here. You simply have two editors that disagreed with you some time ago but never made any attempt to change the content. I did based on that discussion and the public thank you I received when I weighed in on the discussion.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:37, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * No. I just thought it was a bigoted comment to make. And I don't believe it can be sourced properly in the majority scholarship (although I am sure you would manage to find one or two fringe sources to use to support that). Then your only rationale for reverting me is just the concerns raised by User:Corinne. Yes, if that was the editor's viewpoint which I still am not sure of. The editor's concern high chief or chief but chiefess as an English word in the English dictionary and to explain it (which can be accomplished by a footnote). --KAVEBEAR (talk) 05:50, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Oh...so that's supposed to be better?--Mark Miller (talk) 06:11, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If the Pitman House image is a copyright issue and you have hidden it instead of requesting deletion, that is an MOS issue because hidden messages are to be used sparingly and hiding a copyright issue is not that.--Mark Miller (talk) 03:08, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Just a note, I am in the middle of exams, currently right now, and will be out of the country doing a field course later, so I may be slow to respond unless the edits/comments irritate me enough to respond at the detriment of my semester's grade (which for the past few days has).--KAVEBEAR (talk) 03:47, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I see. You'll only respond if irritated enough. That's very collaborative of you in an FA nomination that was archived due to lack of interest.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:19, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Sorry, to my knowledge, this is an active nomination not an archive. All FA nominations are titled "Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/TITLE/archive#"--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:40, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * That was my lack of knowledge. Not yours. Seriously. I saw that and since I have the FA nom page watchlisted and didn't see this come up I just assumed (incorrectly) that the Nov 26 nom date made it an older nom. Nope. Still in the main nom section.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:48, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have to clarify. "Sorry" wasn't an apology it was an expression of surprise (Sorry, what?). --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:52, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You actually didn't need to clarify that... but it does say more than you might have been attempting to say.--Mark Miller (talk) 05:05, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Please, please do what the other reviewers have been doing and suggest edits instead of unilaterally changing the article. --KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:07, 12 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I do not understand the very question since Dank edited the article and reviewed the article for prose. At any rate, editors are welcome to edit the article.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:15, 12 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Accusations against reviewing editor - Because the nominating editor has made accusations of racism and bigotry as well as being "distressingly threatened and harassed" by me, while attempting to address concerns on this page and the talk page of the article, I have been bullied off the review. I cannot do a full review of this article as it will only encourage further disruptive, uncivil behavior. I mean really...if you have to ask the FA coordinator "can I disrespect the opinion of a reviewing editor", it should probably have been a redflag that something was seriously wrong. Because that is exactly what I have endured for a couple of years now from this editor instead of collaboration. --Mark Miller (talk) 10:54, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Closing comment -- I'm sorry that I haven't had time to investigate the whys and wherefores of the dispute between nominator and reviewer above but in any case this has been open quite some time and is not approaching consensus to promote. KAVEBEAR, can I suggest you consider nominating for MilHist A-Class Review, which might be a useful preparation for a subsequent run at FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:46, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 23:47, 30 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.