Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Henryk Górecki/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Maralia 02:21, 15 December 2008.

Henryk Górecki

 * Nominator: Ceoil

Ecstatical contemporary composer. Not much has been written about this man (outside of his 3rd symphony), and I have spent near three years now tracking what has been put down. Ceoil (talk) 07:05, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Reluctant oppose: I welcome this article, and look forward to being able to support it wholehearedly. For the moment, however, it needs further attention:-
 * Much more rigorous referencing. Here are some examples where citations are needed:
 * In the lead, the descriptive terms "ecstatic reverence", "meditative" and "spiritualism" are used. Unless cited, they read as POV. They are not used elsewhere in the article.
 * Early years:
 * "...and the work displayed clear influence from Szymanowski and Bartok".
 * Also, each of the two sentences following that one
 * Minimaliam
 * First sentence of section
 * Second sentence - containing phrases "seen as an affront" and "ceased to be viewed as a composer that mattered"
 * Second para: 3rd and 4th sentences containing "high level of interference" and "almost perpetual warfare"
 * Third para: final sentence
 * Style and composition
 * Second sentence: "He is considered to be a founder..."
 * Third symphony 1st and 2nd movement themes - a 15thC lament and the girl's prison song - need citing, as you have with the third movemet, unless this cite covers all three movements.
 * Critical opinion
 * "The term holy minimaliasm is often used..." By whom?
 * "None of these composers has admitted to common influence"


 * A few points arising from the text:-
 * Lead: "four hundred" should be 400
 * Early years: Some confusiion here. "In 1952 he began a teacher training course at the Intermediate School of Music in Rybnik" – finishing a 4-year course in 3. However, in the third para we have: "Gorecki began his formal study of music in 1952 at the pedagogical department of the Music High School in Rybnik". So, where was he in 1952? Or is the answer that the second 1952 is the wrong year?
 * Early works: What was the "Academy" that he graduated from?
 * Style and composition:
 * You seem to be repeating more or less verbatim a point made earlier, in the "Minimalism" section ("His change of style was viewed as an affront..." etc)
 * "Liberato"? Should this be "libretto"?


 * Images: I can understand the problem of lack of availability of free images, but the article looks very bleak at the moment with just the one picture, barely tangential, tucked away. Is it not possible to find something of relevance, for example a picture of his village, or of an institution with which he has been connected, that can be placed in the lead?

As stated earlier, I look forward to being able to support this in the future. Brianboulton (talk) 14:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Brian, thank you. Writing this has been a very fustrating experiance; there is just so little out there to build on. All of the points you mention are valid but I can do - can you watch this page and give me a day or 2. And then come back with more things you dont like. I'm chipping away at your points so far, will post a block result when done. (and no I dont mean I'll get an admin to block you if you dont agree - I'll say done in one one big done!) Ceoil (talk) 16:27, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Comments -
 * Newspaper titles should be in italics.
 * Done. Ceoil (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)


 * What makes the following reliable sources?
 * http://www.bruceduffie.com/gorecki.html
 * http://www.musicweb-international.com/index.htm
 * Both texts are RS, but are reproduced on weak sources that I've used. I'm not sure at this point how to deal with them. Ceoil (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:07, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Reluctant oppose. Comments: I think the article is interesting, but it may not be quite comprehensive. What has he done since 1995? The music section is very short. The sheer complexity and difficulty of his early music is hardly conveyed. (I remember seeing part of the score of an early symphony - frightening! - time signature change practically every bar, with complex cross-rhythms!) Didn't one work have a movement omitted for this reason at its first performance? (ref: Jacobsen, I think). Some fair use musical examples, discussed in the article text, are de rigeur, I think - perhaps one of an early work and a page of Symphony No. 3 might work. The early influence of serialists, and the later influence of Messiaen and Bach, could perhaps be teased out and exemplified rather than baldly stated. --RobertG &#9836; talk 21:58, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Withdraw per Brian and Robert: basically "music section is very short". To clarify, Gorecki has had only one work since 1995, because of his bad health. This is the image I'd ideally like to include in the lead, and I have 3 music samples...there the down at the end Robert! Anyway thanks guys, good reviews; I'll move them into user space to tick off before I come back. Ceoil (talk) 01:06, 15 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.