Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hindu–German Conspiracy/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 14:00, 15 December 2007.

Hindu-German Conspiracy
I'm nominating this article for featured article because this I believe is a comprehensive article and well referenced article, and I have tried to put due weight and ground on the aspects it covers, namely the German Global effort during Word War I, the Indian independence movement, Asian immigration to North America and other aspects. Any suggestions where this article falls short will be welcome and I will try to correct these. Any help will be welcome. Rueben lys (talk) 12:34, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment – Much obvious thought and effort has gone into this interesting article but I'm afraid the English lets it down. Here are a few examples:
 * Typos etc: vice-counsel, vice-consul; most expensive trial, most expensive trials; German Foregin office, German foreign ministry; Dayals, Dayal's.
 * Style: inconsistent use of capitals/hypens: Consul General, Consul-General; Head Quarters, headquarters; Middle Class, middle class.
 * From China, Gupta proceeded to Japan to try and procure arms, as well as try and enlist Japanese support for the Indian movement. (From China, Gupta went to Japan to try to procure arms and enlist support for the Indian movement.?)
 * The proposed agreement offered China German military assistance and right to one-tenth of the materiel shipped to India if she allowed her borders to be used for shipping arms to India. However, this negotiations were also unsuccessful on he face of Sun Yat Sen's opposition to an alliance with Germany.
 * In the meantime, Early 1900s also saw large scale movement of Punjabi immigrants to Australia and North America, including Canada and United States in the midst of a depressing economic scenario in India especially after 1907. However, this influx was soon met by the Canadian government by a series of draconian and racist legislations that sought to limit the entry of South Asians into the country and limit the political rights of those already resident.
 * Please do not fix these examples and ask me to change to support. They are examples of weaknesses in the article as a whole. It needs a complete close copy-edit by an uninvolved editor familiar with MoS. Otherwise, it really is excellent.
 * -- R OGER D AVIES  talk  —Preceding comment was added at 15:04, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * reply to comment Anybody offers to help?Rueben lys (talk) 17:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Copy-editor now sorted. -- R OGER D AVIES  talk 10:20, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment: What's this in the External links section ? Knowledge Hegemony  16:42, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

 Conditional Support: If all the tags I have added are replaced with sources. Knowledge Hegemony  16:47, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * reply to comment That is actually the citation for the issue of the Illustrated Weekly of India when it was printed back in the sixties. It seems not to fit, although I am trying quite hard to stop it from being unruly.Rueben lys (talk) 17:10, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ Now sorted.Rueben lys (talk) 14:04, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅ Believe this is done.Rueben lys (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Fine. Knowledge  Hegemony  06:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Object. Too many unreferenced claims; for example the entire 'World War II' section has not a single reference.There are several big unreferenced chunks throughout the article.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus 00:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
 * ✅:WW II section is now referenced. Please put a cn where you think needs cited, and these will be inserted. I didn't wish to overcrowd with citations (there are 108 or so already), so I gave general references at the end of the paragraphs.Rueben lys (talk) 10:02, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose Needs a lot of work:
 * Referencing is not FA standard. First paragraph of "Background" section, the "Procuring arms" section and second paragraph of "Note on the name" section has no references. Some long paragraphs need more than 1 or 2 references.
 * References 9, 10, 16, 21, 32, 33, 52, 53, 66, 67, 75, 88, 89 and 90 have formatting problems. Always put the references after a comma or full stop.
 * My English is not very good but I can see the article is not well written and the English needs to be improved. These examples are only from the "Background" section. I did not look at the other sections but I think they also need work.
 * "Early 1900s also saw" sounds wrong. Add a "the" before "early".


 * "those already resident" Huh?


 * "its subjects commitment" Maybe you need to add an inverted commas.
 * ✅ Now changed


 * "comprised of immigrant Indian population" A word is missing, between "of" and "immigrant".


 * "This included labourers, security guards, students, etc." and "These included seditionist, socialist and revolutionary literature...and others" sounds wrong. First, is it "this" or "these"? And I think you should not use "etc." and "and others".


 * The comma between "circulating" and "it" should be changed to a full stop or something else.


 * "Ghadar philosophy was end of" Missing word between "was" and "end".


 * "rural and Military" Why is "military" capital?


 * "by the time that WW I opened" I think "open" is the wrong word.


 * "The collaborations evolved at least six or seven years before the war, and survived the war." "the war"..."the war"...and "survived" the war?


 * "came to be friends" is too wordy.


 * Again, "as well as a number of others" is too wordy.


 * "For this, the links...was used to tap into the Indo-Irish network in the United States." Something's wrong, I don't know what, but I can feel it.


 * "Intelligence bureau" Capital problem.


 * Improve the article and try GA first. --Kaypoh (talk) 10:51, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * reply to oppose: The referencing is done per the Harvard style done in a number of articles including in Satyajit Ray. Only one reference falls outside this style, and this is because I cannot find the ISBN number. The formatting problem raised is getting sorted now, everything else seems to be working perfectly. I dont know how this can be improved further unless you wish to suggest something. The references themselves are peer reviewed journal articles in reknowned journals and I think are the best references obtainable amongst wikipedia history article (see Reliable sources)
 * The language problem has already been raised in the first comment and is currently getting sorted. I have already asked that you put a cn tag where you think need cited. The one or two references given in long paragraphs are themselves journal articles (between 15 and 19 pages long if not more) on those specialised topics and addresses what is contained in the paragraphs, see reply to previous ibject.Rueben lys (talk) 12:24, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * It's OK if a paragraph has 4 sentences and you put a reference after the last sentence. But there are some paragraphs where you have two sentences, then a reference, then two more sentences. The last two sentences are unreferenced. --Kaypoh (talk) 12:44, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * reply I think those were to reference a specific claim as opposed to a general reference, I am going through the article at the moment, please let me know if find anything else, cheers.Rueben lys (talk) 13:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Add I think Kaypoh's formatting concerns have been addressed now. I couldn't find any fault with the refs no. 52,53,66,88 and 90, otherwise have tried to address the points raised. I will start on the other problems mentioned now.Rueben lys (talk) 14:41, 10 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ✅', the specific points raised in Kaypoh's first edits have now been adressed.Rueben lys (talk) 15:00, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Copyedit notes from Maralia
 * Hindu-German Conspiracy
 * The sentence about Berkeley implies that the names listed are all from Berkeley, but V.G. Pingle is described in the next paragraph as having been contacted in India, so I removed him from the Berkeley sentence.
 * Barkat Ullah is also in the Berkeley sentence but doesn't appear to have been from Berkeley; can you clarify?
 * The sentence about the Indian National Congress needs some context; its relevance to the surrounding content is not clear.
 * I changed the name of the 'Ghadar Newspaper' to Hindustan Ghadar to reflect the name used in the linked article.
 * I have changed a name from Barkat Ullah to Maulavi Barkatullah, as you refer to him by 'Barkatullah' later, and this is in agreement with the article named for him.
 * Hindu-German Conspiracy
 * The sentence about the SS Moraitis doesn't seem to belong in this section&mdash;it's not tied in to Irish support for the movement, so it either needs more context, or perhaps it belongs elsewhere.Maralia (talk) 06:25, 11 December 2007 (UTC)
 * Hindu-German Conspiracy
 * I have commented out a phrase about what Har Dayal did in Switzerland, because it was an incomplete sentence that I could not fix.
 * I find it very strange that this section contains only one cryptic sentence about the Komagata Maru, but exhaustive details about the Korea incident. My (extremely inexpert) opinion is that Komagata Maru warrants at least as much focus here as Korea; if you agree, can you try to balance the coverage of the two incidents?
 * Hindu-German Conspiracy
 * Can you clarify what 'the Rodda company' is?
 * I've italicized the word 'dacoities' as it's an unfamiliar foreign term. In context, it reads like some form of fundraising; I was quite surprised when I followed the link and read the actual meaning. Could you find a way to tweak the sentence to hint at the meaning?


 * Reply
 * V.G Pingle was a student of Berkeley who returned to India in 1914 as a part of the conspiracy.
 * Barkatullah held chairs in Japan and Tokyo before joining UCB.
 * The Indian National Congress led the mainstream, constitutional movement for dominion status through peaceful means, the conspiracy was totally opposed to this.
 * SS Moraitis was the first effort to ship arms into India and was planned between Ghadarites and the Irish republicans and was thwarted by W.C Hopkinsons work.
 * Hope this clarifies.Rueben lys (talk) 09:54, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ✅reply to Maralia on Komagata Maru and other things.. Not a problem, I will add this first thing tomorrow morning (honest, gotta catch up with real life).Commenting out Har Dayal's swiss endevaours is fine, it is not very important to the conspiracy itself.Rueben lys (talk) 19:30, 11 December 2007 (UTC)


 * ✅Addressed Rodda company, dacoities, SS moraitis now addressed.Rueben lys (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Comment - Well written article. Some comments --
 * To make it even better and to ensure FA quality, can someone check the relevance of these Auto PR comments and address those that are relevant.
 * Shouldn't the word Conspiracy in the article title be conspiracy that is with a small 'c' instead of a capital C.?
 * "with a series of Canadian government with a series of draconian and racist legislations" is POV. What is draconian and racist according to one point of view, may be perfectly valid from another point of view. Can this be changed?
 * "Discontent and protests grew within the Punjabi community, hitherto an important and loyal force of the British Empire who expected the government to honour its subjects' commitment." This sentence has confusing grammar especially the last part. Can it be reworded?
 * "A large number also moved to the United States, and soon faced similar problems". What problems?
 * "The American State Department was pressured to suppress Indian revolutionary activities and Ghadarite publications emanating from California, especially from San Francisco". This sentence does not seem to be formed well. Do we need the word California here, since the publications were mostly from San Francisco. How about Ghadarite publications which emanated mostly from San Francisco?
 * "The SS Korea debacle led, on the insistence of Zimmermann, to the US organisation's transfer to Herambalal Gupta". Which is this US organisation?
 * "In India, a still optimistic Bagha Jatin went to his death in a desperate last stand against the armed police at Balasore in September 1915 while awaiting the arrival of the same shipment." - Not clear what this means
 * ''"News reports Later investigations by the Directorate of Naval Intelligence is known to have found extensive links to the Irish movement, the Indian Movement, as well as the Communist elements" - Malformed sentence
 * The article is quite big at around 100 KB which makes it difficult to read. Can it be summarised in smaller sections with sub-articles containing more details. Please see this guideline on article size. Thanks -- ¿Amar៛ Talk to me / My edits 10:24, 12 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Reply to Comment- Addressed
 * The word "Conspiracy" here is a noun and not a verb so it should be Capital (Per OED).
 * ✅Draconian and racist now removed. Problem clarified as political and social.
 * ✅*Ghadar publication word now changed.
 * ✅Bagha Jatin removed from top sentence since it has a seperate section on it.
 * ✅Malformed sentence on directorate of naval intelligence now removed.
 * On Article size: I know this one is pretty big, but the problem is that the event itself was so long, (nearly eight years), involved so many different people and resources (I have actually put down condensed version of history). Moreover, some of the individual parts require the context of this article and dont stand out to actually make new sub articles encyclopaedic (like the arms efforts in China and Japan, or the counter intelligence, etc). I will try to merge the Kabul Mission and Middle east since they have the common thread of the Silk Letter conspiracy. Otherwise, I dont see how it can be condensed significantly. I will point out though that some FAs are actually just as long (eg Battle of Normandy).Rueben lys (talk) 12:15, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * 100kb is including templates and photos. Its fine if its less than 10,000 words. Can someone use user:Dr pda's tool to check the 'actual' article size. Knowledge  Hegemony  15:17, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
 * It is 11047 words (67kb; text only).Rueben lys (talk) 15:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

A Request: Can all the editors who leave comments or opposes the nomination please revisit at somepoint to check if their concerns have been addressed. Cheers.Rueben lys (talk) 11:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Note on opposing reviewers The opposing reviewers Piotrus and Kaypoh have been requested to review their oppositions on two occasions each (here, here, here and here), they have not returned to the nomination page to revisit the improvements.Rueben lys (talk) 19:08, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Oppose—To receive our gold star, the writing must be rather good, yes? I've looked at the lead and was disappointed to find that a lot of improvements are necessary. For example:
 * "Among a number of plots planned, the most prominent one was to ferment unrest"—Spot the redundant word. Also, "was to" is ambiguous—does it mean "was intended to" or is it this narrative past tense people seem to use (= "the most prominent would ferment unrest")? And you might consider dropping "planned" from the subsequent sentence.
 * The the most prominent plan was to... I dont see how you can confuse this. Besides, this is how Karl Hoover as well as Giles Brown introduces the topic in their journal articles. Nonetheless if this still needs clarified, I will do so.


 * "The February mutiny was ultimately thwarted at the last moment as British intelligence successfully infiltrated the Ghadarite movement and arrested key figures." Do be careful of "as", which can mean "while" or "because". I'm still not sure which meaning is intended here.
 * "The Indo-Irish-German alliance and the conspiracy caused a worldwide British intelligence effort, which was ultimately successful in preventing further attempts. It also resulted in the arrest of key figures by American intelligence agencies in the aftermath of the Annie Larsen affair in 1917." Caused effort? Is "ultimately" necessary? We can avoid my hated "also" (yep, PMA's right, I'm having a war against it), by a neater sentence structure: "The Indo-Irish-German alliance and the conspiracy prompted worldwide British intelligence activity, which was ultimately successful in preventing further attempts and resulted in the arrest of key figures by American intelligence agencies in the aftermath of the Annie Larsen affair in 1917." That's my hunch.
 * I am a bit reluctant to use the entire prose that you suggest merely because the conspiracy did not cause the intelligence effort, the presence of Indian nationalists in foreign countries (even beofre the conspiracy formally started) did. The '"also" was neccessary because those two weren't the only things the British intelligence did with relation to the conspiracy, and"ultimately" was neccessary because American intelligence agencies were initially reluctant to arrest the Indians (not the Germans), the British intelligence managed to convince the americans and that was the last major event that spelled the end of the conspiracy. This bit is going to take a bit more of time.
 * ✅Changed prose, please review.
 * ✅Changed prose, please review.

"The latter" refers to the "Hindu-German Conspiracy trial" (the latter of Lahore conspiracy trial and Hindu-German Conspiract trial in the preceding sentence) in the US (the country, I dont see why this is a problem. I will change "that" to "the".
 * "The conspiracy led to legal trials like the Lahore conspiracy case in India and the Hindu German Conspiracy Trial in the United States, the latter being one of the longest and most expensive trials in the country at that time." I have a personal preference for "such as" rather than "like" in a formal register (and for although). You don't have to follow it. No hyphen for "Hindu-German"? Does "the latter" refer to the US? "that" --> "the"; because the item is so easy to identify from the context, the stronger back-reference is uncomfortable.
 * "Such as" would be wrong, because the Lahore conspiracy trials and Hindu-Geman Conspiracy trial were the only two major trials on the conspiracy. "Such as" will suggest there were more.
 * Do we need both "subdued" and "suppressed"? They're subtley different, but ...
 * "... the Indian National Army. The activities of the Indian National Army ..."—ungainly repetition, and both are linked!
 * I know the differences are subtle, but difference is there, and that is what is meant.
 * "The activities of the Indian National Army and the events surrounding it were crucial in uncovering the details and impact of the conspiracy." I'm going to be difficult and picky: so the army helped to reveal the impact of the conspiracy? And do events do the uncovering, or people?
 * ✅ Changed.

This indicates the need for a thorough copy-editing. Is User:Fowler&Fowler around? Or User:Snalwibma or User:Samir? Some of those who helped on the Ahmedabad article did a good job.

Fascinating topic. Tony  (talk)  00:39, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * First of all the article has undergone (and still undergoing) quite an extensive look through and c/e, mostly by Maralia and Amarrg, since I nominated it last week. The problem is, the prose of one editor is seen as unsuitable by some others, which is a bit frustrating. I had invited Fowler&fowler earlier to help write the article, but dont think he had the time. If you suggest somemore, I will try to put it through.Rueben lys (talk) 12:33, 15 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Additional notes on closing. 66KB readable prose size suggesting better use of summary style, WP:OVERLINKing (see WP:MOSDATE, solo years are not linked), some footnote cleanup needed (double punctuation and missing info, for example dates on BBC, see WP:CITE/ES), external links should conform to WP:GTL (not all are links).  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 13:59, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.