Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/His Band and the Street Choir/archive4


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 14:44, 28 September 2010.

His Band and the Street Choir

 * Nominator(s):  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  13:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I now think it meets the FA criteria. This is one of Van Morrison's key albums in his development as an artist, even though it is not remembered as one of his best. I've been working on this article on and off for about two years, so I've about exhausted all the sources I have on the album. I hope you all enjoy reading it and add some reviews. I hope it can pass this time. Thanks  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  13:14, 2 September 2010 (UTC) The images were reviewed during its third nomination and nothing has been changed concerning them since.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  14:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 14:42, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

Sources comments: A couple of small issues:-
 * There are no citations to three of the bibliography items: Arkany, Van Morrison albums and Van Morrison anthology.
 * Van Morrison albums is out of alphabetical order; the date in the anthologies entry is misplaced.

Otherwise, all sources look OK Brianboulton (talk) 21:33, 2 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Citation 36 is for Ankany, citations 13, 22, 24 and 30 are for Van Morrison Anthology and Van Morrison album is citation 38. I moved the Van Morrison albums cite to the correct place. The date for the Van Morrison Anthology can't be moved unless an author is inserted into that citation, which has not been given on the publication; if you click edit and view that cite the date's actually in the correct place, but it gets moved to the end when the page is viewed normally. Thanks for the review  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:04, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The reason I didn't pick up 36 is that you have misspelt the name as "Arkany" in the bibliography - should be "Arkeny" per the reference. As to the others, they need be cited to the sources, not to the publishers of the sources, otherwise the citations are unclear. Brianboulton (talk) 16:23, 3 September 2010 (UTC)
 * OK I've fixed them :)  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:56, 3 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Withdrawn Support — The article has been greatly improved since earlier FACs and I find the prose engaging and generally very well written. There are a few stylistic choices that don't quite work, but this comes down to a personal preference. Presumably the images were all cleared in earlier nominations? Graham Colm (talk) 11:56, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the support! Which stylistic choices don't you like? I'd like to hear any ideas you have. The image review was carried out during the third nomination. Cheers  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  18:55, 9 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorry, I have withdrawn my support pending the resolution of the serious problems with regard to the use of sources discussed below. Graham Colm (talk) 09:15, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Tentative support on 1a. I get a good feeling about this, having read only the top part. But there are a few things to fix up all the same. I think it needs a run-through by someone unfamiliar with the text.
 * Getting towards a rather long sentence as the opening: "His Band and the Street Choir (also referred to as Street Choir),[1] the fourth solo album by Northern Irish singer-songwriter Van Morrison, was released on 15 November 1970 by Warner Bros. Records."
 * Some say "compared with, not to, for contrasts. But it's a false contrast ... "with those of his previous work"?
 * "A capella" does mean no instruments at all, doesn't it.
 * Second para starts and ends with the same point.
 * Comma after "Lebes" (, who).
 * Longish sentence could be shortened a little: "His intention was to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind he assembled a vocal group, which he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock.[6]" -> "He intended to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind assembled a vocal group he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock.[6]" Tony   (talk)  15:26, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Hi and thanks for the review. I've fixed your comments. Yes, a cappella does mean singing without instrumental backing.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:22, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

''' Unresolved 1c/1d issue. Leaning to support''' on prose and comprehensiveness. A number of concerns, some of them minor:

*"The first recording session began in April 1970 in a church in Woodstock with limited recording equipment." - even though the sentence is short, "in ... in ... with" seems to string us along for too long with too many qualifiers, the last of which could apply either to the church or the session. Consider recasting to tighten and improve flow.
 * I've reworded it and found some more info on recording, so I moved the "with limited recording equipment" to the end of the paragraph with that.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "he was a veteran of the Moondance tour but did not play on the actual album." - "actual" is not encyclopedic here; also, we're left unsure which "actual" album is meant: Moondance, or His Band? Perhaps "he was a veteran of the Moondance tour, though he had not played on the album." or somesuch.
 * reworded.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Keith Johnson completed the lineup" - does the article use British English? (Irish English??) line-up is hyphenated in British English (likewise out-take, re-released).
 * I've added hyphens to all three words. Is this correct?  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "In June 1970 Morrison began work on the album at the A&R recording studios on 46th Street in New York City." - again, a short sentence manages to take us on a tour, "on ... at ... on ... in". The street name seems inessential, so cutting that would help.
 * "Morrison abandoned this concept" - the Recording section has covered various things (original intent for first session to be a demo only; material considered; instrumentalists used; the a capella idea); hence, that paragraph opener fails to make it immediately clear what "this concept" refers to.
 * Reworded  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * 'He uses the vocal technique of scat singing throughout the track, most notably with the words "Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright"' - isn't scat singing wordless? This needs to make clear what's meant by "with".
 * Replaced "with" with "around".  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "and features a recurring bass line riff " - "line" seems superfluous
 * Removed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "The song was considered by many reviewers as a tribute to Fats Domino,[16][17] but the lyrics in a previous recording are inconsistent with this view:" - though sourced to Heylin, comes over like WP:OR as phrased; in any case, the inconsistency doesn't prove the end result wasn't a tribute. This needs to be in Heylin's voice, not Wikipedia's (e.g., "although Heylin suggests otherwise, because of the lyrics in a previous recording:").
 * I've removed "but the lyrics in a previous recording are inconsistent with this view ... ", because the lyrics in the original recording of "Domino" (before the one Heylin quoted) actually mention "Fats Domino", so I think it's best not to include it.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Morrison first recorded "If I Ever Needed Someone" in Autumn 1968;" - see WP:SEASON; the MoS deprecates the use of seasons to identify points in a year
 * Fixed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * ""Virgo Clowns" was first recorded during the early winter of 1969" - ditto
 * Fixed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "represents a shot from a gun, consistant with the American outlaw theme" - sp (consistent)
 * Fixed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "The second recording session yielded the remaining material.[9] "Call Me Up in Dreamland" is a gospel-style composition. The Street Choir feature conspicuously in the song; biographer Ken Brooks relates this to the fact that the album originally was to be recorded a cappella" - what point is Brooks making here? Why say this about this song as opposed to any other? Suggest cutting unless it can be elaborated upon.
 * Removed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "They also refer to Morrison and Janet Planet's life at the time, as Planet remembered, "We were finally, really living in a dreamland—believe it or not—it was a magical time."" - unclear what the effect of "as Planet remembered" is here. I suspect it's not encyclopedic, whatever it means
 * I've reworded it. Is it better like this?  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

*"Because of these lyrics Heylin was led to believe that the song refers to the time when Morrison was ripped off by the music industry" - why the past tense for Heylin's view? It's not contrasted with another, as far as I can see. Also, "ripped off" can't be encyclopedic ... can it? And regardless of terminology, it's not Wikipedia's role to refer to "the time when Morrison was ripped off by the music industry." That needs to be in Heylin's voice, or Morrison's, or termed neutrally.
 * Somebody told me before that I should change biographer's opinions to past tense. I may have got the wrong end of the stick, but I've changed it back. Heylin uses "ripped off"; can you suggest something better please, I'm not sure what else to use?  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Past tense is fine for plain words like "said" and "wrote", but here, we have "was led to believe": unlike the plain terms, this invites speculation that (a) the belief was mistaken; (b) he later believed something different; (c) others always believed something different; (d) Wikipedia believes something different ... and so on. Additionally, it can produce the expectation that we will soon be told about how and why he was wrong to believe such a thing. And to refer to Heylin's belief, which involves a view that Morrison was "ripped off" by the music industry, we need to quote Heylin. So, we can quote whatever he says on page 221 that includes that term. That way, Wikipedia avoids making any assertion about whether or not Morrison was "ripped off"; it remains something Heylin said. PL290 (talk)
 * I've reworded this.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Because of these lyrics Heylin wrote that the song refers to the time when Morrison was "ripped off" by the music industry remains an assertion by Wikipedia that such rip-off occurred. But you're only citing something Heylin said. As I suggested above, the simplest way to resolve the 1c/1d issue would be to fully quote Heylin. PL290 (talk) 18:34, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Added quote  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That has solved the 1c/1d issue, but the result now fails to give the reader any context for understanding what's referred to. Heylin wrote that "such songs [as "Street Choir"] were spawned by an increasing awareness of just how badly ripped off he had been". Nowhere in the article does the reader find anything about a rip-off to connect with this quote. So the quote doesn't add to the reader's understanding of they lyric, "Why did you let me down / And now that things are better off / Why do you come around". If Heylin's quote is to be meaningful here, it needs to include the part where he identifies what he's referring to, i.e., assuming it was correct before, the music industry.PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

*"Ken Brooks assumed that the lyric "Move On Up" is another reference " - again, why the past tense, when no contrasting view accompanies? (Or are these two I've mentioned intended to be contrasted with each other? If so, it needs work to make that apparent.)
 * Changed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ken Brooks assumed/assumes; tense change hasn't really helped. Same point as above, the word is the problem. Whether you use present or past tense, a plain term is more encyclopedic to express a biographer's opinion without inviting speculation (writes/wrote, says/said, in the view of Brooks, x is the case, etc.) PL290 (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Writer Brian Hinton described the lyrics as perversely bitter,[17] and Jon Landau felt "Street Choir" was one of the "two or three finest songs" of Morrison's career because of its "musical and poetic energy"." - the Landau part doesn't really relate to the Hinton; if it must be one sentence, "and" seems the wrong linking word as it produces the expectation that what follows will perhaps reinforce the view of bitterness. (Also there's that past tense again, "felt"; I don't think it's encyclopedic, unlike said, wrote etc.)
 * I've reworded this  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

*"Warner Bros. Records scheduled His Band and the Street Choir for rush-release ... This led the company to mistitle the promotional releases as His Band and Street Choir and prepare an incorrectly ordered track listing." - I doubt that the rush-release led the company to do those things; it produced conditions under which they made those mistakes.
 * 'Morrison dismissed these photos as "rubbish", however Johnny Rogan commented that the front cover looks far worse; it included a "hilarious" image' - that use of however requires a preceding semicolon and a trailing comma; however, in this case, all things considered, I suggest ending the sentence there instead ("rubbish". However, Johnny Rogan commented).
 * done  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Still lacks the comma after "however": However Johnny Rogan commented means in whatever way Johnny Rogan commented. PL290 (talk) 19:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've added the comma.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

*The Packaging section seems to dwell too much on Morrison's beard and Kaftan. They take up about half the section. There may not be much else to say about the packaging, but this seems imbalanced. A trim seems in order.
 * Trimmed Morrison's quote  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "The final single, "Call Me Up in Dreamland", managed only two weeks on the Billboard Hot 100 by reaching number 95" - "by" seems inapplicable.
 * replaced "by" with "while".  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Per MOS:QUOTE, blockquote is for quotes of more than four lines, so the couple of two-and-a-half-line blockquotes seem incongruous; however, others may feel differently, and the MoS may need tightening on this point.
 * On my computer screen the blockquotes are four and five lines long; it probably depends on the computer.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

PL290 (talk) 14:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Despite this assistant producer and drummer" - needs a comma after this.
 * Fixed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Just noticed a section title Morrison and the musician's responses. A few problems with that:
 * It should be a plural possessive, musicians', as there were numerous musicians
 * Fixed  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * However, it's really all about Morrison's response. That calls the section title into further question.
 * I've added Janet Planets' view.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't think that helps. There were numerous musicians. More on this section below. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Morrison's quote in illustration of "regarded Street Choir poorly later" doesn't actually seem to be about the music at all, but only the album cover and title: "Somebody else got control of it and got the cover and all that shit while I was on the West Coast. I knew what was happening to it, but it was like I couldn't stop it. I'd given my business thing over to someone else and although I had final approval on things, they just went ahead and did the wrong thing. They told the record company it was one thing and it wasn't. So the whole thing went wrong."
 * There is a long passage in Yorke about Morrison's distaste of the album, covering many different aspects of the album. The quote in the article was originally much longer, but I was advised to cut it down.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That was probably because it was a subsection of Reception until recently. It should probably be reinstated. More on this below. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The statement following it, "Despite this, assistant producer and drummer Dahaud Shaar recalled that Morrison had positive feelings towards the album at the time of its release", is a WP:SYNTH issue: you are combining two facts to imply a new conclusion (that Morrison may be incorrect to say he had negative feelings towards the album at the time of its release&mdash;if indeed he did say that). The "recollection" of those two people relates only to their impression of Morrison's feelings&mdash;quite a different thing.
 * Heylin makes the link between the two quotes, however a better quote is used in Yorke, which is used in the article instead. The Dahaud Shaar quote was removed in a previous FAC, which does relate to the album and not Morrison's feelings. Do you think I should reinstate the quote?  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  20:22, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Probably. See below: this section needs to decide its role. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Regardless of any of the foregoing, I don't think any of this belongs as a subsection of Reception.
 * Moved it to a new section.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  20:24, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * This role of the Morrison and the musicians' responses section is still strange. One way or another, this section needs to decide its role and be titled and populated accordingly. Adding a sentence about Planet's view, to justify the section title, has not really helped: this is still not about "the musicians" at all (there were lots of musicians). Additionally, the summary in the lead, that he came to regard Street Choir poorly in later years, is not backed up as it should be by this section, which only says that right at the time of release, he was upset by someone else's choice of packaging and title. The quote you say was removed is probably more applicable now the section is no longer part of Reception. Consider titling the section something to the effect of Morrison's dissatisfaction and filling it with all the facts relating to that. PL290 (talk) 11:27, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

PL290 (talk) 16:33, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Thanks very much for the review PL290.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  16:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment
 * Commas: "Despite this assistant producer and drummer Dahaud Shaar recalled that ...". It's almost mandatory after "this". Can you check through for such instances (sentence-initial)? Tony   (talk)  15:10, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've checked the article and I can't find any other comma mistakes, that I'm able to detect.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Comment
 * Recording section of article reads: Keyboardist Alan Hand joined Morrison's band in late April 1970, replacing Jef Labes, who had left the band to move to Israel. The reference given for this statement in Heylin's book, page 238 reads: "JEFF LABES: I left the band. I actually left the country [later that year and] moved to Israel." It seems clear enough that he didn't leave to move to Israel: [later that year] would not be in or before April of 1970. Minor point, perhaps, but still a misstatement of facts. Agadant (talk) 12:29, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Ok, a misread on my part. Jeff Labes is acyually spelt Jef Labes per his website http://www.jeflabes.com/.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, I know how Jef Labes is actually spelled, but I was quoting from the book exactly as it was written. What is your point bringing this up? It serves to be distracting from the main issue that you misinterpreted the material. This article is up for FA.  You need to be very careful about reading and stating the material.  Agadant (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Again from Recording section: "The first recording session began between March and May 1970 at a small church in Woodstock." —no reference for these dates on Heylin, page 239 or Heylin, page 520... "wrote three new songs ("Gypsy Queen", "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss"), and recorded three instrumentals. Limited recording equipment was used, operated by engineer Elliot Scheiner," —Heylin, page 238, -not 239, reads: "Aside from a couple of spatial instrumental jams, all Morrison seemed to have in his notebook was lightweight fillers like 'Crazy Face' and 'Give Me a Kiss'."—Heylin, p. 239 reads: "Unconcerned by the marked difference between a modern sixteen-track studio like A&R and a derelict church, Morrison turned to drummer Dauod Shaw for technical input..." Again from this same paragraph in the Recording section: "However, according to biographer Clinton Heylin, Scheiner and Morrison had a disagreement during this session"— Heylin, p. 239 reads: "By the time the band transferred to A&R... Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console... However, at some point during this first set of sessions, Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words"... Again from Recording section: "In June 1970 Morrison began work on the album at the A&R recording studios in New York City."— Heylin, p. 520 reads: "Spring 1970? A&R Recording Studios"
 * The first recording session, as marked by Heylin on p.520 was recorded in spring 1970 (March to May), with engineer Elliot Scheiner. I must have got a bit muddled yeasterday when I changed the page number for the church in Woodstock ref from 238 to 239, when it was on 238 in the first place. Heylin notes on p.238 that he recorded new songs "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss", old songs "Domino", "If I Ever Needed Someone", "Funny Face" and "I've Been Working" and some instrumentals, while on page 520 he lists all the above songs minus "Gypsy Queen", so I changed the wording to "During its course Morrison worked on leftover material from his previous two albums (Astral Weeks and Moondance), recorded three songs that he had not performed in the studio before ("Gypsy Queen", "Crazy Face" and "Give Me a Kiss"), as well as three instrumentals." And for this last bit you've missed out the key points of the quotes from the book "Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console after fulfilling post-production duties on Moondance ... Morrison and Scheiner had an exchange of words and Scheiner found himself out in the cold, with a meaningless 'Production Co-ordinator' credit to his name ... ", which is a disagreement if he was dropped for Dahaud Shaar. The second recording session was in the summer 1970, according to p.520, which is June to August, so I've changed it from June to June to August.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I read all of the material carefully and didn't miss out the key points to anything. You have interpreted contradictory and very unclear material in a manner that you prefer. Your job as the trusted editor should be to only use material that is not questionable with contradictory references in the same book. You can't pick and choose whichever you prefer. Well, at least I wouldn't think so. Agadant (talk) 17:40, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * BTW: It doesn't say "some instrumentals" as you claim above and wrote as three in the article—it definitely says, "a couple of spatial instrumental jams" on page 238— couple means two, if I'm not mistaken. Agadant (talk) 19:39, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Non of this is contradictory, as what I've written above explains this. The only time when something is contradictory is the recording location, which is marked "?A&R Recording Studios" on p.520, which should be ignored because of the question mark. Heylin's sources are clear in the main body of the book where the album was actually recorded.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:49, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It seems to be contradictory about which session Elliot Scheiner was engineer on and replaced by Shaw. Am I reading this correctly? —Heylin, p. 239 reads: "By the time the band transferred to A&R, Morrison seemed in a real hurry to get in and out. As usual, he was hoping to cut the whole thing live, which initially helped push things along. Engineer Elliot Scheiner, back at the console after fulfilling post-production duties on Moondance...... However, at some point during this first set of sessions, Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words"... "Morrison turned to drummer Dauod Shaw for technical input...*That doesn't say that it was during the demo sessions at the church that Scheiner and Morrison had an exchange of words, it says at A&R and Shaw was then co-producer. By the way, I do know that Dauod Shaw is also called Dauod Shaar and also David Shaw, but I'm using it as in Heylin's book. Agadant (talk) 19:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I always read "By this time" as Heylin talking about before when "the band transferred to A&R", so I've corrected the recording section.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * But it doesn't say "By this time", it says "By the time". There's a big difference in the meaning. Agadant (talk) 19:45, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * That's as far as I've checked for now and I can't check all references out, as I don't have all the books used as sources. Agadant (talk) 15:05, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Heylin writes both His Band and the Street Choir recording sessions on p.520 as "?A&R Recording Studios", which implies he doesn't know where they were recorded, but he makes it clear in the main part of the book that it was recorded in a church and the A&R Recording Studios.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:13, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Again a use of material that is contradictory in the same book with 'your' preference being used. Agadant (talk) 17:47, 22 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Not my preference. I misinterpreted this sentence.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:52, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Composition section: "the simple lyrics lack the level of poetry popularly expected from Morrison's work." [ref: Heylin, p. 235]—No where on this page does it speak of "the level of poetry popularly expected from Morrison's work." Agadant (talk) 01:54, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I was going for variety in wording. I've replaced "poetry" with "complexity".  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Heylin, p. 235 refers to his "profound distrust of those who sought to interpret his lyrics" and says, "he would dramatically compress the number of levels on which the lyrics could operate, denying his audience any real songs open to such literary analysis." I don't see how "the level of poetry" statement formerly in the article would be arrived at by Heylin's writing on this page. Agadant (talk) 16:09, 26 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "He uses the vocal technique of scat singing throughout the track, most notably around the words "Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright".[10] According to wiki definition: Scat singing is vocal improvisation with wordless vocables, nonsense syllables or without words at all. —Jon Landau's article used as a reference says only: "The chorus in which the horns and Van's voice come together to say 'Woman, woman, woman, you make me feel alright' is breathtaking."Agadant (talk) 02:43, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Reworded  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  17:25, 23 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Van Morrison regarded Street Choir poorly later in his career, as he told biographer Ritchie Yorke in 1973—later in his career is 1973? and this is written in 2010 about a career that has spanned 50 years- it seems like a poor choice of wording. Agadant (talk) 12:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed "later in his career".  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:49, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "Morrison intended to create a full a capella record, and with this in mind assembled a vocal group he called the Street Choir, consisting of his friends Dahaud Shaar, Larry Goldsmith and Andrew Robinson, who all lived near Woodstock."[Rogan, p. 257]. *Rogan, p. 257 actually says:"Originally, Morrison had envisaged recording a pure a cappella album, featuring a select group of friends and musicians, including his wife Janet."  *It seems clear from the page referenced that Morrison had always intended Janet to sing on the album. Why is this misstated?
 * I think I missed this for some reason - it seems pretty obvious, but I only looked at the quote that preceded this statement.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "He had wanted the choir to feature only male vocalists, but was persuaded to allow three women to join: Morrison's then wife, Janet "Planet" Rigsbee, and the wives of Keith Johnson and Jack Schroer (Martha Velez and Ellen Schroer)." [Collis, p. 121] *Collis, p. 121 actually only gives a listing of the Street Choir of singers-there is nothing about "only male vocalists". Agadant (talk) 13:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorted  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * The lead section needs to be looked at for inaccuracies: For one this statement seems to be an untruth: "but plans for a rush-release forced him to finish the album using some of the demo session's tracks." *I don't think this statement can be backed up anywhere. Another one: "Morrison was dissatisfied with the addition of female vocalists to the choir" *As he originally intended Janet to sing on the album, this statement is in fact not true and perhaps inaccurately portrays him in a male chauvinist manner.  This is far from true, as he has readily employed and valued female musicians and backing vocalists. Agadant (talk) 14:01, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Sorted  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "However, Morrison was later persuaded to abandon the use of a cappella when the band from the demo tracks was used on all the songs" [Rogan, p. 257] * Rogan, p. 257 does not contain information or any mention at all concerning this statement. Why is it slipped into the material about the Street Choir that is written about and referenced to Rogan, page 257?  Agadant (talk) 18:40, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * My mistake  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * "I wanted these certain guys to form an a cappella group so that I could cut a lot of songs with just maybe one guitar. But it didn't turn out."[Collis, p. 122] * This information is not included on Page 122 in Collis' book... Is it just me or is it becoming discouraging and rather sad that this article was put up for FA review now 4 times and seems to have been based on mostly fabrications and wrongly attributed sourcing? It really is a disservice to the biographers that their work has been misattributed on Wikipedia. Agadant (talk) 18:57, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
 * It does appear on p.122 in my copy, at the very top of the page (1998 release of the book)  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I'll just have to accept your word on this one. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * Most of this is down to a misinterpretation on my part of a passage in Heylin's biography.  Kitchen Roll   (Exchange words)  19:46, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * Yes, there was a serious lack of comprehension of the material on the recording sessions and where they took place, etc. and unfortunately you built the article around that misinterpretation and misrepresentation.  (The article is now just a shell of its former self) There also seems to be a very casual disregard for facts and the trusted position as editor of  "getting it right".  Most importantly,  there were other serious misattributions in sourcing unrelated information in Heylin and other biographies as listed above (Rogan, Collis) [and more Heylin below] and with reviews used for references. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)


 * His Band and the Street Choir was first released on LP on November 15, 1970 and was Morrison's third record to be produced for Warner Bros. [Heylin, p. 221] *The release date and LP information in this sentence is not mentioned on Page 221 of Heylin's book. Agadant (talk) 23:04, 25 September 2010 (UTC)
 * "Janet Planet holds the view that "There is much to love about the songs on this album: 'Blue Money', 'Crazy Face', 'Call Me Up in Dreamland', 'Domino' - these are just great songs in any era."[Heylin, p. 241]. *This quotation actually appears on the album sleeve-notes. Heylin precedes it with "As part of her new public role, Janet even became his sleeve-note writer."  As such, would this quotation deserve a place in the musicians' response section as it would necessarily  be commercially slanted?  On another humourous level to lighten things up, it's odd to see that Janet, who originally was written up in the article as not desired by Morrison to be included in the Street Choir at all, now has enough importance in the album's significance to voice her opinion of it. (Surely, I'm allowed to be humourous and/or sarcastic after all the research I have put in here on the references.) Agadant (talk) 16:49, 26 September 2010 (UTC)
 * I've expressed my concerns before that this article was wrongly sourced in many instances: Here But no one cared... WHY IS THAT?? I don't go about promoting myself and sucking up to the reviewers, admins, etc..  I spend as much of my free time as possible on Wiki only working,  but I think I should have a reputation for being reliable and trust-worthy and have no personal motivations against this editor, only an abiding concern for the quality of his work and his inability to comprehend and/or care very much if he uses sources incorrectly. Agadant (talk) 13:37, 27 September 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.