Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of Gibraltar/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

This article was promoted by 17:51, 23 March  2013 (UTC).

History of Gibraltar

 * Nominator(s): Prioryman (talk) 21:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

I originally wrote this article three years ago but have since expanded it further and got it up to Good Article standard. It's an interesting topic and really demonstrates, I think, the extraordinary impact that this 2.6 sq mi territory has had on the history of Europe. I'm fortunate to have been able to do some on-the-spot research for this article in the course of a visit there (and destroyed a pair of trousers in the process, though the less said about that the better!); I present it here for your consideration as a featured article candidate. Prioryman (talk) 21:00, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

By the way, I expect someone will bring up the question of why Devenish has no publisher, ISBN or location listed. The reason is that his book went through all the stages of pre-publication - editing, typesetting and proofing - and was just about to be published when the publisher went bankrupt. There is now only one publicly accessible copy of the book that I know of, a final proof version which he gave to the British Library. Prioryman (talk) 23:11, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The Devenish issue is now resolved thanks to a suggestion from Nick-D below. Prioryman (talk) 08:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Current status


 * Support
 * Dank (on prose)
 * Dr Blofeld
 * Nick-D
 * Tim riley


 * Oppose


 * Comments only
 * DrKiernan
 * HJ Mitchell
 * HueSatLum
 * Nikkimaria

Image review
 * Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
 * Fixed. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Possible to avoid text sandwiching in the WWII section?
 * Only by removing one of the images, but if we have to, I suppose we have to... See what you think of it now. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Tower of Homage: grammar in caption
 * Reworded, hopefully it's OK now.


 * File:Location_Gibraltar_EU.png: on what source(s) was this image based?
 * It's clearly someone's compilation of various Commons SVG maps - I recognise several of them. I'd have to do a bit of work to identify which specific ones. Do you think I need to list them all? Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * File:Gibraltar_World_Wind_view_annotated.jpg should include a NASA licensing tag, and should make clear that you were only responsible for the annotations (correct?)
 * Correct, so I've amended it accordingly and added the tag. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * File:PillarsHerculesPeutingeriana.jpg needs US PD tag. Normally you would want to include date of death for author, but it's not entirely clear whether Millieri is the author or just the editor/publisher - can you verify?
 * Publisher. As the English description says, it's a "facsimile edition by Conradi Millieri, 1887/1888." The map itself dates to the fourth or early fifth century. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Okay, then don't list him as the author. Also, still need US PD tag here. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Done both. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * File:Original_coat_of_arms_of_Gibraltar.jpg needs US PD tag
 * Done. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * File:George_Rooke.jpg: source link returns 404 error
 * Fixed. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * File:The_Sortie_Made_by_the_Garrison_of_Gibraltar.jpg needs US PD tag, source link appears broken
 * Done and fixed. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Link fixed, but life+70 is not a US tag - as its description states, you need an additional tag regarding status in US. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, done. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * File:Bataille_algesiras.jpg needs US PD tag
 * Done. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * File:1883_-_Frederick_William_J._Shore_Arengos_palace.jpg needs US PD tag and has two different authors - please verify. Should also use original rather than upload date
 * The only author is Frederick William J. Shore, unless I'm missing something? Also, as far as I can see, the only date given is the date of creation (1883). Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I think someone has reused a template from another image. Fixed these problems. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * What is "athered by Neville Chipulina"? Nikkimaria (talk) 14:32, 13 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fixed, it was a typo. Prioryman (talk) 20:43, 13 March 2013 (UTC)


 * File:Gibraltar_Harbour_scene,_February_1909.jpg needs US PD tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:02, 20 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Done. Prioryman (talk) 23:03, 20 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Dr. Blofeld


 * Comment. My initial feeling is that Modern Gibraltar needs to be made more comprehensive. No mention of 1980 Lisbon Agreement, 1984 Brussels Agreement etc? What date exactly did Marks and Spencers open a branch in Gibraltar?♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  12:48, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * You wouldn't expect to find any of those things in the Modern Gibraltar section, as it starts at the opening of the border with Spain in 1985. I don't know when M&S opened - the oldest reference I've found dates to 1983 - but again it would fall outside of that section. Prioryman (talk) 18:49, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * 1968. 78.144.247.57 (talk) 18:59, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Post-war Gibraltar then.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  21:05, 21 February 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I've added an extra paragraph about the Lisbon and Brussels agreements which I hope resolves your concerns. Prioryman (talk) 21:38, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

Support I think it is pretty sound now, seems to have a good general coverage, well researched and written, well done!.♦ Dr. ☠ Blofeld  16:51, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * HueSatLum


 * Comments – This is not necessary, but the "References" section is rather long; it could use a refbegin...refend, possibly with columns. Also, tunny links to a disambiguation page. HueSatLum 21:37, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * Yes, you're right - I've reformatted the references as 30em columns. I've also changed the tunny link to tuna. Prioryman (talk) 22:27, 23 February 2013 (UTC)


 * HJ Mitchell


 * Just a note: I own a copy of Jackson (Rock of of the Gibraltarians) and I have Hills (Rock of Contention) and Finlayson (The Fortifications of Gibraltar; though that's only cited once) on order so I'd be happy to do spot checks. I'm also reasonably familiar with the subject matter, so I'll give this a thorough review. Just not necessarily very quickly. :) HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  22:29, 28 February 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks, Harry, and congratulations - Hills and Jackson aren't easy to get hold of! I'll await your review with interest. Prioryman (talk) 22:32, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

OK, some comments (these are as far as the "Gibraltar as a colony" section). There are quite a few of them, but most of them are relatively minor or just suggestions for little details you might want to include:
 * The first sentence is rather long and seems to be trying to cram a lot of facts in; perhaps it could be split up? If not, I would be inclined to put the first sub-clause (a small peninsula situated at the western edge) in dashes rather than commas.
 * I've revised this - see what you think of it now. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Captured by an Anglo-Dutch Fleet – if linking is necessary, I'd suggest linking to Kingdom of England and Dutch Republic (the contemporary nations rather than the modern ones)
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Mention War of the Spanish Succession earlier?
 * Done this too. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Spain ceded the territory to the United Kingdom – it was the Kingdom of Great Britain at the time
 * Corrected. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Britain had made a Crown colony  – Is "declared" or similar better than "made"?
 * I'm happy with "declared", so I've changed it to that. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * fifteen sieges in 500 years? Both Jackson and Hills only record 14 (Jackson discusses the closure of the Gibraltar-Spain border in the 70s as a fifteenth siege, but it wasn't really a siege in the same sense as the other 14)
 * Corrected. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The territory is also now fully self-governing – do we need the "also"? And "self-governing" isn't strictly accurate; it's a British overseas territory, so the UK is responsible for foreign affairs and defence issues, and it still has a British governor (though he "governs" in name only) who theoretically represents the British monarch
 * Good points, I've amended it accordingly. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * 4 miles (6.4 km) from the city of Algeciras – is that as the crow flies? I think the overland route is quite a bit longer.
 * I used the direct-line distance deliberately - it's not only as the crow flies but as the shell flies, too; not a minor consideration given Gibraltar's history. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gibraltar is on the far south coast of Spain – minor point, but the definition of "Spain" has changed many times throughout Gibraltar's history; since the section is about geography, would Iberian peninsula be better?
 * I'm referring to Spain as it is now, rather than at earlier points in history before Spain existed. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Most of the land area is occupied by the steeply sloping Rock of Gibraltar which reaches a height of 426 metres (1,398 ft) – is that from the ground or from sea level?
 * From sea level - does anyone measure heights from the ground? I was under the impression that the standard assumption is that any spot height will be measured from sea level. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The town of Gibraltar lies at the base of the Rock on the west side of the peninsula – the west side is by far the most densely populated, but the south and east sides are also populated
 * True, but they're not part of the town of Gibraltar. :-) The south is Europa Flats and the east is Catalan and Sandy Bays, neither of which are counted as part of the town. Prioryman (talk) 23:07, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Ferdinand also issued a letter patent granting privileges to the inhabitants to encourage people to settle. Is it worth mentioning that people were reluctant to settle in Gibraltar, so Ferdinand had to offer incentives?
 * OK, I've added a bit more to cover this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * but were thwarted by a Castilian relief force. Jackson suggests they abandoned the siege when they saw the relieving force approaching, rather than being "thwarted" by it.
 * Fair point, changed this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * the two sides agreed to disengage in exchange for mutual concessions. Is it worth mentioning that it was a time-limited (four-year) truce?
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The Castilians besieged the city for two years and eventually forced its surrender – might be worth working in a link to Siege of Algeciras (1342–1344)
 * Done too. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * His decapitated body was hung on the walls of Gibraltar – I'm guessing you're trying to avoid excess detail, but it's not clear how his body came to be decapitated (ie that the Moors recovered it and decapitated it)
 * I've reworded this to clarify it. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * a small Castilian force under Enrique's son Juan Alonso, who had become the first Duke of Medina Sidonia, launched a surprise attack is concise, but not strictly accurate. The first assault was launched by the governor of Tarifa; the Duke of Medina Sidonia arrived later and only took control after an almighty row over who was to accept the Moors' surrender.
 * Also reworded this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gibraltar became Crown property again in 1501 at the order of Isabella – might be worth mentioning the Duke of Medina Sidonia's displeasure when Henry IV did this and his lack of objection when Isabella did
 * From the 16th century, the modern meaning of the name came to be adopted – specifically referring only to the town of Gibraltar and the peninsula on which it stands. Do we know much about how or why?
 * Devenish doesn't seem to go into any detail on this, I'm afraid. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Although the Spanish and Dutch declared a temporary truce in 1609 (Twelve Years' Truce), in 1621 hostilities were resumed – "although" implies it was something unexpected, but if hostilities resumed after the expiry of the truce, surely it wasn't unexpected?
 * True - I've reworded this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * In May 1702, Britain's Queen Anne formally declared war on France. The Act of Union wasn't passed until 1707.
 * Changed "Britain's" to "England's". Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Is it worth noting that the French claimed the Battle of Vélez-Málaga as a victory?
 * I've added some words to allude to this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Expulsion of foreign troops: might be worth talking about the corruption of some of the early governors and the expulsion of Jews and Moors that was mandated by Utrecht (though never implemented).
 * although Philip V retained the Spanish overseas empire, ceded the Southern Netherlands, Naples, Milan, and Sardinia to Austria; – is there a "he" missing there or have I misread it?
 * Well spotted, fixed this. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The Spanish had learned the lessons of the failure of previous sieges and this time assaulted Gibraltar from both land and sea – I wonder about this; it's not as though this was the first time Gibraltar had been assaulted from both fronts. The De Guzmáns attempted it some 300 years earlier, and a lack of ships seems to have been the reason for the lack of a naval blockade in intermediate sieges rather than Spaniards not learning lessons from them.
 * Fair enough, reworded. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * I remember reading somewhere (probably Jackson) that George III felt that the Floridas and Minorca were too high-a-price to pay for Gibraltar; personally, I would have thought that worth a mention, but, to use Dank's phrase, YMMV.
 * We probably got more use out of Gibraltar! To be honest I think I'd prefer to leave that out, as it raises the question of why George III felt this way - it's getting into the weeds a bit. Prioryman (talk) 23:30, 18 March 2013 (UTC)


 * You need a citation after The steadfastness of Gibraltar gave rise to the expression, which is still current today, of something being as "solid as the Rock of Gibraltar".

I'll continue at the weekend or early next week. HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  15:18, 14 March 2013 (UTC)

Resuming: just a handful of comments on the second half
 * Might be worth linking "General Fox" to Henry Edward Fox
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gibraltar served first as a Royal Navy base from which blockades of the ports of Cadiz, Cartagena and Toulon – do we have articles on the campaigns we can link to?
 * I've had a look but I don't think there's a linking article covering this campaign. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The British fleet returned to Gibraltar for repairs before HMS Victory returned to England – I'd be inclined to make a little more of Trafalgar, given its fame in British naval history and the impact it seems to have had on Gibraltar (there are various monuments to it around the place, including a cemetery); Admiral Collingwood's letter reporting Nelson's death, for example, was sent to the governor of Gibraltar.
 * OK, I've added some more. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The outbreak of the Spanish Civil War in July 1936 presented Gibraltar with major security concerns, as it was initially on the front lines of the conflict implies to some extent that Gibraltar was involved in the fighting; perhaps we could make it clearer that the fighting took place nearby but never directly affected Gibraltar?
 * I've had a go at clarifying this. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Jackson doesn't elaborate much on why Operation Felix was never implemented; presumably Franco was keen to (re)conquer Gibraltar; any idea what the quid pro quo was that Franco found so unacceptable?
 * Spain couldn't feed itself and relied on grain imports from the Americas. Franco knew that if he went to war with the Allies, Spain would be blockaded, and he demanded replacement grain from Hitler as a condition of joining Felix. This presumably couldn't be done. I've added a mention of this to the article. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Gibraltar took decisive steps towards civilian self-rule – the wider context of UN-mandated decolonisation is worth mentioning here; Gibraltar's steps towards self-governance weren't taken in a vacuum. Also, self-rule probably isn't the right term given that Gibraltar is too small to realistically be a sovereign state and its government elected to retain the British association.
 * I've added some more on this issue. Prioryman (talk) 21:21, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

— HJ Mitchell &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  18:46, 17 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I worry slightly that you don't give enough weight to the Spanish justifications for the border closure etc; the measures were ostensibly for security and prevention of smuggling
 * Thanks, Harry; I'll go through these over the next couple of days. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 17 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Nick-D


 * As an initial comment, I'd suggest tweaking the bibliographic details for Devenish to note that the only copy is in the British library - you could use the approach I took for a work which is only available at the Australian War Memorial in the No. 11 Group RAAF article (not that it's an FA!). Nick-D (talk) 07:10, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Excellent idea, Nick - thanks. I've implemented it as you suggested. Prioryman (talk) 08:22, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

Comments It's always good to see an article on a 'big' topic at FAC, and this is in very good shape. I have the following comments and suggestions:
 * The first sentence doesn't really grab the reader - it starts well, but then goes down a narrow track. This sentence should, in effect, summarise the entire article by defining its scope per WP:LEADSENTENCE.
 * I've tried rewriting the first sentence, see what you think now. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * That looks good. Nick-D (talk) 07:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The extent to which the article relies on Jackson seems surprising - is this the standard work on the history of Gibraltar and/or are there not many other histories available?
 * Both, really. There are many books with deal with particular aspects of Gibraltar's history (the Great Siege, WW2, the fortifications, the dispute with Spain etc) but there are only a very limited number of general histories of the place – there seem to be about 2 or 3 published each century. Of the recent general histories (Alexander, Hills and Jackson), Alexander is fairly lightweight and doesn't say much that isn't covered in the other two, Hills is extremely heavy going and Jackson probably strikes the best balance between density of detail and readability. In addition, Jackson has the advantage of being a noted military historian (see his bibliography) so he is naturally very good on the military stuff. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I wasn't expecting that there would be many overall histories of Gib. Nick-D (talk) 07:36, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Since 1985, Gibraltar has undergone major changes as a result of post-Cold War reductions " - the Cold War didn't end until the period 1989-1991
 * I've reworded this. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Gibraltar's unique geography" - all geography is in some sense 'unique'; this word could be removed without losing anything (ditto the 'thus' here as well)
 * Fair point. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The peninsula was surrounded by a fertile coastal plain" - it wouldn't have been a peninsula at that time then ;) (I'd suggest tweaking this to something like 'the current peninsula).
 * Actually, it was still a peninsula, just a bigger one than now. But I've tweaked it as you suggest. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Ref #6 needs a page number, and I don't think that the sentence it supports needs to be in parentheses.
 * There isn't a page number - as noted in the bibliography, it's from the Kindle edition, which doesn't have fixed page numbers. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The 'Geographical background' section says that Gib is "an advantageous natural anchorage for ships", but the 'Prehistory and ancient history' section states that it lacked "a safe natural anchorage". This seems contradictory.
 * I've tried to clarify this. The bay is a good natural anchorage, but the shoreline of Gib itself is not - until it was permanently settled and people built a harbour there, there wasn't really anywhere good to come ashore. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph in the 'Muslim rule (711–1309, 1333–1462)' section needs supporting references
 * Done. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "He ordered that a keep and dockyard were to be built to secure Castile's hold on the peninsula." - this is a bit passive and unclear - can you say that these facilities were built on his orders?
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "apparently as the price for their military support of the Moors of Fez " - this reads a bit awkwardly (the 'of the Moors' in particular)
 * Reworded. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "He visited Gibraltar in 1463 but was overthrown by the nobility and clergy four years later" - the 'but' doesn't seem necessary
 * Reworded. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "the Moorish emirate in Spain came to an end with the Catholic Monarchs' capture of Granada.[47] Gibraltar remained in Spanish hands but lost its Jewish population" - specifying that Gib was Spanish in this context seems unnecessary given that its stated that the Moors were driven out of Spain in the previous sentence, and 'lost its Jewish population' seems a rather colloquial way of putting things.
 * Fair point, reworded. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The second Duke of Medina Sidonia nonetheless sought the town's return and in September 1506" - what's going on here? Did the Duke rebel against the central government? - if so this could be made more explicit.
 * Not really a rebellion against the crown as such, more an attempt to force a local royal garrison to relinquish control. The Spanish kings had persistent problems with excessively powerful nobles at this time. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Despite continuing external threats Gibraltar continued to be neglected" - repetition of continuing/continued
 * Fixed. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "a major raid in which hundreds of Gibraltar's citizens were taken as hostages or slaves" - is it appropriate to refer to people of this era as 'citizens' given that they had few rights? I'd suggest 'residents' or similar.
 * Fair point, changed this. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Many of the captives were subsequently released when a Spanish fleet intercepted the pirate ships as they were bringing ransomed hostages back to Gibraltar" - this is confusing: if the hostages had been ransomed and were on their way home, why did they need to be rescued?
 * The captives were taken to North Africa and held for ransom; when promises of payment were made, they were brought back. The Spanish fleet rescued the captives before the ransoms were actually paid. Those who weren't ransomed were presumably sold into slavery and never came back. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "to order a strengthening of Gibraltar's defences" - bit awkward. How about "to order that Gibraltar's defences be strengthened'?
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The town remained an insanitary, crowded place" - this is the first time that living conditions in this era are discussed - the 'remained' is a bit confusing, and can this be expanded upon?
 * I don't really have anything about living conditions before then - I think the source's point was simply that the nasty living conditions from the medieval period persisted. I've replaced "remained" with "was". Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "a fleet of 49 English warships manned by 10,000 sailors and soldiers put to sea in the Straits and reconnoitred Gibraltar" - do you know what proportion were soldiers? This seems to be a very powerful force for the time, and 'reconnoitred' might be putting things mildly (I presume that the idea was to grab any lightly defended and defensible locations?). Also, 'put to sea in the Straits' doesn't seem right given that the fleet would have 'put to sea' from somewhere in Britain.
 * No idea about proportions, the source doesn't seem to say. I think you're right about the idea, but as for reconnaissance, it seems that all that happened was that they sailed past the place and (I would assume) looked it over through telescopes before deciding to sail on. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "Suicide and desertions were common" - read literally, this implies that most of the personnel sent to Gib committed suicide or deserted, which seems unlikely
 * I don't read it that literally. If you read the original diary by "S.H." quoted in the following line, it records suicides and desertions on a virtually daily basis. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * What's a 'curtain wall'?
 * See Curtain wall (fortification). Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The favoured route to the east was via Egypt, even before the Suez Canal had been built, and Gibraltar was the first British port reached by ships heading there" - this sounds dubious. While it was relatively popular for people heading east to trans-ship in Egypt, I don't think that this was common. Due to the expense and difficulty of overland transport at the time, not much cargo would have been transshiped via Egypt.
 * According to the source, cargoes to India were shipped to Egypt and carried by caravans across what is now the Suez route before being put back on ships on the Red Sea. I've found other references to this route, which extended to Jeddah, where the shipping routes from India traditionally ended in pre-Raj days. Bear in mind that the route around the Cape of Good Hope would have been very long and pretty dangerous in the sailing ships of the time. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure if I completely buy that (overland transport of cargo was very slow and expensive in the pre-modern era and sea transport was much more efficient and typically faster; see the first chapter of Tim Blanning's book in the Penguin history of Europe The Pursuit of Glory for a good discussion of this), but it's not a major issue here. And I have been wrong on things in the past ;) Nick-D (talk) 10:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The French unsuccessfully besieged Tarifa, further down the coast, in 1811–12 but gave up after a month" - the 'unsuccessfully' seems surplus given that the sentence concludes by noting that the seige was a failure
 * Fair point, changed. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The naval base was heavily used by Allied warships for resupplying and repairs" - 'heavily used' is a bit awkward, as is 'resupplying'
 * "A new and powerful fleet called Force H " - to be pedantic, Force H wasn't a 'fleet'.
 * OK, reworded. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The lead says that Gib was "repeatedly attacked" but the section on the war says that such attacks only took place "on several occasions". I think that the second version is superior given that the attacks weren't very frequent or effective.
 * OK, fair enough. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "he decided not to join Hitler's planned Operation Felix" - is 'join' an appropriate term here given that Operation Felix could not be conducted without Spanish permission and assistance?
 * I think it is; the Germans had an alternative version of Felix which they could potentially have executed without Spanish assistance – it would have been a de facto invasion of Spain, though not a Yugoslavia-style full invasion and occupation. Obviously Hitler's commitments in the east made that impossible after 1941. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "The immediate threat to Gibraltar lessened after the collapse of Italy in September 1943" - this seems a bit of an overs-statement. By this time the Allies had captured all of North Africa and Sicily and were in firm control of almost all of the Mediterranean region. I would have thought that Operation Torch in late 1942 ended any threat.
 * Not quite, the last (Italian) attacks on Gibraltar were as late as August 1943. Prioryman (talk) 14:52, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Fairly small scale and ineffective bombing raids weren't much of a threat, and don't really warrant such strong wording - the main threat to Gib was an overland attack. Nick-D (talk) 23:39, 2 March 2013 (UTC)
 * OK, I've reworded this - see what you think of it now. Prioryman (talk) 22:57, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * The section on the Second World War should note Gib's important role in the Battle of the Atlantic.
 * I've added a new paragraph covering Gib's role in the Atlantic convoy system. Prioryman (talk) 22:46, 4 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "it was not until as late as February 1951 that all the evacuees were able to return home" - this is a bit vague. Can you say that the last of the evacuees returned home in February 1951?
 * Reworded. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Why was there a lack of civilian housing after the war? Had some of the buildings which housed the pre-war population been demolished?
 * No. There simply wasn't room for all the people. The military had always taken priority for land use, and there were strict controls on things like the height of buildings. I've referred earlier to the extreme crowding in 19th century Gibraltar - it was even worse by the mid-20th century. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * It might be worth noting that Argentina considered raiding Gibraltar during the Falklands War (Operation Algeciras)
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "a major programme of land reclamation was carried out; land reclaimed from the sea now accounts for a tenth of Gibraltar's land area." - watch for repetition of 'land'
 * Reworded. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "By 2007, Chief Minister Peter Caruana was able to boast that Gibraltar's economic success had made it "one of the most affluent communities in the entire world."" - a more neutral source is needed for such a claim Nick-D (talk) 23:55, 1 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I still think it's worth quoting as an official view, but I'll see if I can find some statistics from the OECD or somewhere like that. Prioryman (talk) 23:33, 3 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've added GDP (PPP) per capita rankings from the CIA World Factbook. For the record, it's listed as the 18th highest worldwide and the 2nd highest in the EU. Prioryman (talk) 20:36, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support My comments have now been addressed. Great work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 10:28, 11 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Dank

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "one of the wealthiest parts of the European Union": per capita? And, I'm not sure what a "part of the European Union" is ... other words would be better (even "region", which is only a little better). - Dank (push to talk) 03:17, 5 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'd prefer to avoid "region" as that has specific meanings where the EU is concerned. Gibraltar is unique in the EU in that it's the only overseas territory of a member state that is located in Europe. (France has its overseas departments but they are outside Europe). So perhaps "area" would work better than "part"? Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Sure. - Dank (push to talk)


 * "he ended his career in disgrace": raises a question it doesn't answer
 * I've answered the question now. :-) Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * "decimated": avoid this word; it means "reduced by a tenth" to some readers and "annihilated" to others.
 * Reworded this. Prioryman (talk)


 * I've tweaked the lead. We generally don't use bolded links at FAC, particularly in the first sentence, and WP:LEAD says the title "does not need to appear" verbatim (the language used to be stronger) when the title is descriptive rather than a proper-nounish sort of thing. I struggled with the first sentence for a while, but finally concluded that this provides another example of how hard it is to make descriptive titles work as the subject of the first sentence. I took "Stone Age" out because I think most readers would have taken from the wording that Neolithic habitation followed the Neanderthals (it largely overlapped). You may or may not want to add something like "Stone Age artefacts in the caves of Gibraltar date back 40,000 years", but leads that are too heavy on dates feel a bit dry. I took "before its current transformation into a hub for tourism and service industries" out because it seemed out of context; that stuff follows later in the lead. - Dank (push to talk) 15:17, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've tried revising the 1st para of the lead; see what you think of it now. Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll hand this off to someone else to look at. - Dank (push to talk)


 * I'm continuing ... the article is growing on me. I just tweaked the first sentence so that it's not quite as dull as my previous attempt, but the previous version is fine with me too.
 * "Spaniards 16.5 per cent, Jews 15.5 per cent, British 13 per cent": This is suggestive of the mindset that Jews could never really be Spaniards or British. I know you mean something like "self-identified" or "identified by the authorities as", but be a bit more explicit here about the categories. - Dank (push to talk) 19:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The Jews weren't Spaniards or British, that's exactly the point. They weren't native to Spain, Britain or Gibraltar - they came from North Africa, either as refugees or as traders. Strictly speaking they weren't supposed to be in Gibraltar at all, as the Treaty of Utrecht forbids their presence. The fact that the British ignored that prohibition was one of the subsequent Spanish grievances. Prioryman (talk) 20:39, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I'll hand this off too, but "Sephardic Jews" would probably work for me. - Dank (push to talk)


 * If you prefer, the battles of Algeciras could be tied together in one link, to Battle of Algeciras (1801). - Dank (push to talk) 20:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good idea, done. Prioryman (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)


 * San Roque is linked three times. Sometimes there's an implication that it's a new city; it's not. - Dank (push to talk)
 * I've delinked the latter two times. Where is the implication you mention? I'm not seeing it myself. Prioryman (talk) 20:51, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * It's okay I guess. - Dank (push to talk)


 * "St", "St.": It's usually (but not always) better to be consistent. "St" is a bit more common in BritEng (and nonexistent in AmEng).
 * They are both proper names but appear to use the St./St differently (compare Cathedral of St. Mary the Crowned with St Bernard's Hospital). Prioryman (talk) 20:47, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Okay, done until later tonight. - Dank (push to talk) 20:59, 6 March 2013 (UTC)
 * "£412,996,602 today": See WP:DATED. I have some advice at User:Dank/Copy2. - Dank (push to talk) 01:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)
 * Good point, replaced "today" with "in 2013 prices". Prioryman (talk) 20:49, 8 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer, except per comments above, and except that I stopped at the last section, History_of_Gibraltar. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 01:03, 7 March 2013 (UTC)


 * Support – an impressive article. I wondered when I began reading it if was going to turn out to be too long, but you have succeeded in packing a huge amount of information into the text, and I congratulate you. Meets the FA criteria in my opinion. Just two tiny points: in the lead I'm not sure "history of" should be in bold – it looks rather odd. And "reconnoitered" should, I think, be "reconnoitred", but you may like to double-check. – Tim riley (talk) 15:37, 18 March 2013 (UTC)

Spot check on 10 web-accessible sources; I see in Harry Mitchell's Just a note comments above that he might do spot checks on published sources: Should In the late thirteen and early fourteenth centuries Castile fought with the Marinids of Morocco and the Nasrids of Granada fought for the control of the Strait of Gibraltar. be In the late thirteen and early fourteenth centuries Castile fought with the Marinids of Morocco and the Nasrids of Granada for control of the Strait of Gibraltar.?
 * 4: OK.
 * 8: Not found at source, but the material is easily verified by: Finlayson, J.C.; Barton, R.N.E.; Stringer, C.B. "The Gibraltar Neanderthals and their Extinction", Les Premiers Hommes Modernes de la Peninsule Iberique. Actes du Colloque de la Commission VIII de l'UISPP ISBN 9789728662004 pp. 117-122
 * Added this ref. Prioryman (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 97: OK for final sentence of paragraph.
 * 178: OK.
 * 183: OK, but the visitor numbers do include workers as well as tourists (see p. 6 of Tourist Survey Report and p. 71 of the Abstract of Statistics). You could say "over 10 million" as an alternative, since that would seem fair when the worker numbers are removed.
 * That's fair enough - I've changed it. Prioryman (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 184: OK.
 * 186: I'm not sure "the second most prosperous territory of the European Union" is entirely clear since there is one EU country above it but there are 3 British overseas territories and 2 Crown dependencies above it. Recommend "the second most prosperous country or territory within the European Union" to clarify.
 * The original wording is correct. None of the other Overseas Territories or the Crown Dependencies are part of the EU. Prioryman (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)
 * My proposed wording is clearer. DrKiernan (talk) 18:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)
 * 187: OK.
 * 188: OK.
 * 189: OK.
 * Yes, thanks for spotting that. Reworded. Prioryman (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

Like Harry, I would expect a citation for The steadfastness of Gibraltar gave rise to the expression, which is still current today, of something being as "solid as the Rock of Gibraltar".? DrKiernan (talk) 21:59, 19 March 2013 (UTC)
 * I've modified the wording and added a source. Prioryman (talk) 23:20, 20 March 2013 (UTC)

The first sentence says "off the coast", which I would have thought relates to an entity that is not attached to the coast, like a ship or island. I presume this wording has been chosen to highlight that Gibraltar is not a part of Spain, in which case situated at the western edge of the Mediterranean Sea off the southern coast of Spain could be changed to on the Iberian coast at the western edge of the Mediterranean or at the southwestern end of Europe near the entrance to the Mediterranean Sea.
 * That's a fair point.

It's a fine article that looks certain to pass. DrKiernan (talk) 18:25, 21 March 2013 (UTC)

Graham Colm (talk) 17:51, 23 March 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.