Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/History of York City F.C. (1908–80)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Beards via FACBot (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2015.

History of York City F.C. (1908–80)

 * Nominator(s): Mattythewhite (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

This article details the history of York City Football Club, an association football club based in York, England, from 1908 to 1980. This nomination comes on the back of the successful FAC for Bootham Crescent, the club's ground, and as part of my drive to improve the York City F.C. featured topic. The article has held GA status since December 2007, and upon its recent expansion was copyedited by Baffle gab1978 of the WP:GOCE. Thanks in advance, Mattythewhite (talk) 17:33, 7 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments from Parutakupiu
A big part of my comments will focus on sentence construction, so I'll try to explain you case-by-case how I believe the text would read better. Sometimes, I may get bored and just copyedit the article, so I hope you can scrutinise my changes and revert them if you don't agree. Parutakupiu (talk) 01:28, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

General
 * I think the article would become richer if the section titles had something more than just year periods. A piece of text that could either sum up the most important moments or highlight a particular but highly relevant event from the club's history during each period.
 * Added descriptive section headers. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * You often link football seasons to 19XX–9X in English football, which never show any details from the divisions in which YCFC played. In some cases (e.g. Northern Football League), there are season-specific articles that those links should point to. For other leagues (e.g. Yorkshire Combination, Midland League) without seasonal articles, I'd prefer if the links to 19XX–9X in English football were removed altogether than pointing to a page that has no related content. I'm fine with whatever you choose.
 * Wikilinked as suggested. I'll link to the club season articles as and when they're created. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I notice you use the semicolon mark... a lot. In many instances, sentences are short enough to link the different clauses with a conjunction, and it often makes the read flow better.
 * This was largely the product of the independent coyedit. Reworded some sentences to reduce the number of semicolons. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Avoid as best as possible to begin sentences with season year numbers. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Have reduced the number of sentences that begin with seasons. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

Lead
 * "... covers the period from the club's original foundation..."
 * Fixed. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #1: "Originally founded in 1908, York City played several seasons..."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "... before the Football League stored its usual competitions in 1946–47." Stored? You mean restored?
 * Fixed. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #2: "... because they finished the 1949–50 season at the bottom of the Third Division North."
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #3: "York played in the Third Division North until 1958–59, when a league reorganisation placed them in the Fourth Division."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #4: "The same season, they finished third and won their first-ever promotion, but were relegated after one season."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Goal average should read goal difference, as the link it points to.
 * The Football League used goal average until 1976, when it was replaced with goal difference (see this). Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #5: "They were promoted to the Second Division for the first and only time in 1973–74. By mid-October 1974, York achieved the fifth position—their highest league placing—before finishing the 1974–75 season in fifteenth place."
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Suggestion #6: "... and a twenty-second place finish in the 1977–78 Fourth Division forced the club to apply for re-election."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:34, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

1908–17
 * Place a comma between "...in June 1912" and ref #5
 * Comma added. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

1922–39
 * "... the decision was made to form the York City Association Football and Athletic Club Limited .[11] , with W. H. Shaw was being elected as the club's first chairman.[11]"
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The club's first season proved disappointing financially, with a loss of £718 reported .[16] , and as a consequence Shaw relinquished the chairmanship to Arthur Brown.[16]"
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "This was York's last season in the Midland League ; as the club won election into the Football League on 3 June 1929..."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "York's first match in the Football League was played away to Wigan Borough on 31 August 1929 ; it and finished with a 2–0 victory for York the visitors.[26]"
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "1929–30 brought two meetings with First Division club Newcastle United in the FA Cup third round, and York ranked in a sixth place in their first York's Football League debut season.[28]"
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Place a comma between "... in May 1933" and ref #37
 * Comma added. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "In Although the club finished 1934–35, the club finished in fifteenth place,[39] and saw Bootham Crescent stage its first match against First Division opposition when Derby County defeated York 1–0 in the FA Cup third round.[40]"
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Place a comma between "... with his brother" and ref #43
 * Comma added. Mattythewhite (talk) 20:15, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

1939–59
 * Place a comma between "regional competitions" and ref #53. Check if other ref tags are not placed after punctuation marks and correct as per WP:REFPUNC.
 * I don't think the sentence would be improved with a comma there. Per the guideline you have cited, "The ref tags should immediately follow the text to which the footnote applies, with no intervening space".  The reference doesn't necessarily have to follow punctuation. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Hmm, it does allow that interpretation, although it's more clear in WP:CITEFOOT. Still, it only says it's normal practice to place ref tags after punctuation marks, not a guideline. It's just I rarely see such tags being placed freely within text that I felt the need to point it out. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Notice also the punctuation mark changes in the following suggestion: "... on a wartime footing.[54] York decided to carry on playing,[55] York and were placed in the North East League, where they ranked ranking eighth in their section of eleven clubs.[56] In the final weeks of 1939–40, York they competed in the Football League War Cup in the final weeks of 1939–40 ."
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The format was changed for 1941–42." Whose format? Is this ''really' necessary?
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Break up long sentence: "After completing eighteen fixtures in the Football League North, York competed in the league-organised qualifying stage of the War Cup, but were eliminated after ranking thirty-third of fifty-four clubs, failing to qualify for the knock-out stages by one place."
 * Broken into two sentences. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "Peacetime football resumed in 1946–47, and with the same fixture list as the abandoned 1939–40 season was used ."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "1951–52 was York's best post-war season to date ; as they finished in tenth place and set a home record of sixteen wins, four draws and three defeats."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Typo: "... the team embarked on a ten-match uneaten sequence."
 * Fixed. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

1959–80 — Parutakupiu (talk) 23:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "This application was successful, as the club polled the maximum forty-eight votes."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The team reached the FA Cup third round, where they were beaten 2–0 at home by First Division Stoke City"
 * Not sure if "where" is the best word to use here, as we're not referring to a location. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I tend to use "where" in the case of competition rounds/stages, but maybe I've been wrong. Hey, you're the native speaker... Parutakupiu (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "The team drew 1–1 at home with Aston Villa in their opening Second Division match on 17 August 1974, with Barry Lyons scored scoring for York."
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * "York finished the season in fifteenth place,[149] and but the season's highlights included..."
 * I'm not sure about using "but" here; it implies the league finish was poor, when it's in fact the club's best-ever ranking... Mattythewhite (talk) 22:42, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, true but they were fifth at some point, so it must've felt a bit disappointing to end up ten ranks lower. But yes, in terms of final classification, you're right, so nevermind. Parutakupiu (talk) 23:46, 15 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support. Satisfied with the changes, so here's my approval. Parutakupiu (talk) 00:17, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Comments – I haven't reviewed the above comments in detail, so I'm sorry if anything is copied or mentioned up there.
 * In the lead: "The club was reformed in 1922 and was elected to play...". Next sentence: "they were elected to play in the Football League for 1929–30, and were placed...". Is there any reason why the team is singular in the first sentence and plural in the second?
 * Association football articles generally use the rule of thumb: "club = singluar, team = plural", although the lines can become blurred. One example is History of Liverpool F.C. (1892–1959), which was recently promoted to FA status. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1908–17: You probably don't need a World War I link, since that is such a common item and doesn't provide much utility in a football/soccer article.
 * Removed the wikilinks to the world wars. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1922–39: "with Jock Collier taking over as player-manager." This is a noun plus ing type of sentence structure, which tends to be wordy and not the best prose possible. You could substitute "named" for "taking over" to fix this.
 * Reworded as suggested. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * I see a couple of years starting sentences, which also isn't optimal. One possible fix is "The XXXX season" or similar.
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * There are more of these later in the article, so keep an eye out for them.
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * 1959–80: "and was replaced by Lockie. Lockie's...". Try not to repeat the name like this from the end of one sentence to the start of another.
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Another noun plus -ing to fix here: "with Barry Lyons scoring for York." Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:39, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Reworded. Mattythewhite (talk) 14:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
 * Support – The extensive review from Parutakupiu above is what really got this article into good shape. I believe that it meets the standards, so I'll support it. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:07, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Support Comments from Cas Liber
Taking a look now.....


 * Ok, I can't see any prose-clangers outstanding and feel this article passes WRT prose and comprehensiveness. A nice read. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:00, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

Image Review from Cas Liber
Images all have appropriate licencing apart from File:Charlton20618news1.jpg. Surely this isn't "own work"..? And is not 75 years old, so maybe Fair Use template is needed? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:10, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Replaced with a free image. Mattythewhite (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Source Review from Cas Liber
NB: using this version to reference FN numbering, in case of further change.


 * Regarding reference formatting, decide whether you're using sentence case or Title Case. Appears to be the latter, in which case there might be some (like FN 27 and 46) that need capitalising. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * I've been loyal to the casing used by the sources, except when they use all caps. Should they all use the same case?  If so, is there any preference? Mattythewhite (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
 * One option is all Title Case, other is Title Case for books titles and sentence case for journal articles. As long as the same type are consistent. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:24, 7 November 2015 (UTC)
 * Adopted Title Case. Mattythewhite (talk) 12:04, 7 November 2015 (UTC)


 * Compare FN 152 and 153 and how editor is formatted. Choose one for consistency.
 * Made consistent. Mattythewhite (talk) 19:31, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Spot Check from Cas Liber

 * FN 27 checks out - source material supports text.
 * FN 2 and FN 3 check out - source material supports text.
 * FN 35 checks out - source material supports text.
 * FN 121 checks out - source material supports text.
 * FN 134 checks out - source material supports text.
 * FN 148 checks out - source material supports text.
 * Earwig's tool negative.

Graham Beards (talk) 15:17, 23 November 2015 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.