Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Holden/archive4


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted 00:36, 5 March 2008.

Holden

 * previous FAC

I am re-nominating this article as all previous concerns have been addressed. Thanks in advance. OSX (talk • contributions) 04:11, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment. Criterion three concern:
 * WP:NFCC#3B: “An entire work is not used if a portion will suffice” Image:Holden_logo.png‎ and Image:Holden_logo_history.png‎ contain redundant content. NFCC#3A requires minimal usage: “As few non-free content uses as possible are included in each article and in Wikipedia as a whole.” ЭLСОВВОLД  talk 16:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Done: I have re-uploaded the file Image:Holden logo history.png‎ without the duplicate logo. OSX (talk • contributions) 21:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Thanks. ЭLСОВВОLД  talk 21:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment Duplicate references should be combined using the I've fixed one as an example. PeterSymonds | talk  18:08, 20 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I've spotted a couple (most of them are duplicated – my mistake). There are a few more, though. PeterSymonds | talk  18:14, 20 February 2008 (UTC) Thanks, PeterSymonds |  talk  10:12, 21 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I don't quite see the advantage of using over . What are the benefits of using this kind of formatting? OSX (talk • contributions) 21:27, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Done: Never mind I worked out what you were trying to say. OSX (talk • contributions) 21:41, 20 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Support Quite an exemplary article much deserving of FA status. HarrisonB - Talk 10:14, 25 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Neutral I'm not thrilled that so many of the sources rely on website reviews instead of magazine reviews. Karanacs (talk) 16:57, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Oppose based primarily on citation concerns


 * Does this mean that the man opened a new company, or that the company bought an existing company and folded it into J.A. Holden & Co? " J.A. Holden incorporated a new company in 1919, Holden's Motor Body Builders Ltd (HMBB) specialising in car bodies."


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "Both Ford and General Motors provided studies to the Australian Government to produce "Australia's Own Car"." - this makes it sound like the studies would produce Australia's Own Car. And what did they mean by Australia's own car?


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I assume that GM was chosen by the government, but that might need to be explicitly stated, or, at least, the transition between the two paragaphs in the 1940s section should be improved


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This sentence sounds like a promotional ad, and should be sourced directlyt "During the 1950s, Holden dominated the Australian market by offering buyers a combination of style, comfort, performance, economy, and value that no competitor could match"


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The first paragraph of the 1950s section has some flow issues. It talks about being good at dealing with rural areas, then drifts off into production capacity, then goes back to rural areas


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * "Chairman and managing director Mark Reuss currently heads" - add an as of please, since we don't know when this sentence was written we don't know what "currently" means/meant


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Not all of the sources have publishers listed


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 53-55 were written by John Mellor, but I assume he isn't the publisher. Karanacs (talk) 16:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The name of the publisher is John Mellor Pty Ltd, but it has just been shortened to John Mellor. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This source http://eventmechanics.net.au/wp-content/uploads/2006/11/Supercharged_Essay_Fuller.pdf needs to make it clear that it is originally published by a magazine, not the website listed


 * Comment: The source was not publisher by a magazine, but it is giving credit to scanned images not included in the online version. The correct publisher has now been included. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * The articles that come from The Age need to have that listed instead of/in addition to Fairfax Media


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Newspaper names in citations should be italicized. I know it's picky, but that's the standard. Karanacs (talk) 16:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 05:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * This article came from the Daily Telegraph (see the bottom of the webpage). Can you track down when it was published and use that instead of a mirror as the source?  http://carsguide.news.com.au/site/research/story/holden_captiva_weaponised_for_ford_territory/


 * Comment: This website is not a mirror. The motoring section in the Daily Telegraph is called "CarsGuide", and the online versions are published on the CarsGuide website and not the Daily Telegraph site. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Karanacs (talk) 18:16, 25 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I have concerns whether these sites are reliable sources
 * Unique Cars and Parts
 * http://www.autoweb.com.au/
 * http://www.globalautoindex.com/
 * http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/4_05_hold.htm
 * http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/1916079.aspx
 * http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/history2/79/Holden-Ltd.html
 * http://www.goauto.com.au
 * http://www.nextcar.com.au/n.daewoo.statesman.05apr.html


 * Comment I'd have to disagree with Karanacs on that one, those sites listed above are quite reliable, for example Carsales.com.au is quite reliable and very well known in Australia. HarrisonB - Talk 05:01, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment: I would also have to disagree with you on this one. I had doubts over http://www.globalautoindex.com/ and have replaced this source, but all the others are reliable sources. We're not exactly quoting controversial information here, just the history of an Australian automaker. Any even remotely controversial facts use top-quality sources. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:45, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * I think the biggest question here is who puts the information in there. Can anyone enter the information?  Are there editors that verify, etc?  If not, then these are considered self-published sources, which are generally frowned upon.  Karanacs (talk) 16:46, 26 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Those sources are not self-published. The information published on the AutoWeb, WebWombat, Carsales, GoAuto and Next Car sites is written by journalists. If you read on, you will see that many of the other article published on those sites have authors, but some of the older sources tend to lack authors. The only one I am not sure about is http://www.referenceforbusiness.com/. OSX (talk • contributions) 05:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment The phrase "Production continued with minor changes until 1953, when the Ute was replaced by the facelifted FJ model" is a bit confusing. It seems to suggest only the ute was facelifted and not the sedan, which doesn't fit well with the rest of the paragraph. In the 1980s section: "infeasible to convert the six-cylinder engine to run on unleaded fuel, the Nissan engine was chosen" should probably read "existing six-cylinder engine." A few concerns over criterion 1a in some parts of the article; e.g: "Holden introduced xx model" is repeated quite a few times in the 1960s section. VectorD (talk) 08:41, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 07:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Support, with a few minor notes for improvement. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 09:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * Is Mark Reuss notable, and if not, can the redlink go?
 * Removed. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * There are no other key people for the infobox?
 * Not really, no. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Could the image in the Exports section be moved to the other side; I don't particularly like the way the font is forced to the centre of the screen
 * It could yes, but when I tried it the image doesn't line up with the table on the right so it looks really messy. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Could the "2006 sales and production" table be updated for 2007?
 * The 2006 data is the most recent data released by Holden. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Is the See also section necessary? Surely you can link to List of Holden vehicles somewhere in the infobox, plus navbox etc...?
 * Removed, and now included in the Template:Holden timeline. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 09:21, 27 February 2008 (UTC)
 * I'm satisfied with these changes, and my support stands, obviously. dihydrogen monoxide (H20) 08:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Support : I agree with your call on Commodore model designations but I note that every mainstream Holden from 48-215 to HZ now gets a mention on the Holden page except for the FC. That seems a bit odd. Cheers GTHO (talk) 01:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Oppose : As much as I would like to give my support after all that hard work, there are a number of issues that I’m not comfortable with.
 * 1940s
 * “…….while GM's was a three-page list of the members of parliament and what each member would receive in "financial aid"’’. This sounds like straight out bribery. I think it may need a little extra explanation.
 * “The 48-215, also unofficially called the FX, was launched in 1948” I feel that it should be pointed out that the 48/215 was marketed simply as the “Holden” and was the first car from the company to use the name.
 * No mention of ongoing Chevrolet, Pontiac, Vauxhall production.


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1950s
 * Reference to the introduction of the Panel Van has been omitted
 * “Production continued with minor changes until 1953, when the Ute was replaced by the facelifted FJ model. The FJ was the first major change to the Holden.........” This is confusing as it could be assumed from this wording that the FJ was only a Utility
 * “……the FE, was launched in 1956, and offered as both a station wagon and a sedan”. No mention of the ongoing Coupe Utility and Panel Van body styles
 * The FC intro has been omitted


 * Done, however, I have not added information regarding the facelifted FC model. Your right, we "cannot cover the introduction of every facelift of every model" and the Australian-made cars count too. This kind of information is better suited to a History of Holden models article. The Holden article should summarise the model history, making mention of only major updates like the VT, VY and VE models etc. Does the VX Commodore's new taillight lenses and revised headlight design really warrant a mention? OSX (talk • contributions) 07:22, 28 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1960s
 * The EJ intro has been omitted and thus no mention made of the first Premier
 * “…….and the first two-door Holden, the Monaro”   Ignoring utes and vans, the HB Torana was the first two door Holden. The Monaro was of course the first two door Holden coupe.
 * The HA Viva intro (1964) should be mentioned before the HK intro (1968)
 * No mention of the end of Chevrolet, Pontiac, Vauxhall production


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 07:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1970s
 * The LC Torana reference implies that it was available only as a six cylinder model
 * “The series included a new prestige brand, Statesman,” I think this needs more explanation given that it was the first "Holden" not marketed in Australia as a "Holden"
 * No mention of HJ, HX & HZ upgrades


 * Done, however, I don't believe the HJ, HX and HZ updates are notable enough to warrant their inclusion. OSX (talk • contributions) 07:23, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


 * 1980s
 * The caption on the VN Calais photo implies that it is a photo of a “VN Commodore”
 * No mention of the WB series intro
 * No specific mention is made of loss of market leadership. Pretty big news I would have thought.
 * No indication of how serious GMH’s 1980s financial problems really were. I seem to remember terms like “closure” and “bailout” being used. Also very big news.
 * No mention of the end of Statesman, Ute and Panel Van production


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 12:08, 1 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 1990s
 * “Holden re-introduced its defunct Statesman brand in 1990, this time under the Holden marque, as the Statesman and Caprice respectively” Holden revived the Statesman name, but not the “brand”. Also the grammar is a little shaky as “respectively” implies two changes, ie  x & y became Statesman and Caprice respectively.
 * “Another returning variant was the Commodore utility” This implies that there had been a Commodore Utility in the past and that the new release (the VG Holden Utility) was marketed as a Commodore Utility. Of course neither are correct.
 * The Vectra’s local production demise is recorded, but not its commencement
 * The VP, VR & VS Commodores upgrades have been omitted


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 00:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


 * 2000s
 * “Holden had already established close research and design links with Daewoo, with whom it exported the large Statesman model”. Daewoo didn't “export” Statesmans.
 * The VX Commodore has been omitted.
 * The intro of the VY seems to be out of place, i.e. it is included after various mid 2000s developments.
 * “By 2006, Holden had replaced the Commodore with a new all-Australian VE model”. This implies that the Commodore is no longer with us.


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 00:05, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate that this article cannot cover the introduction of every facelift of every model but I feel that at least the mainstream model changes should be covered here (eg EK to EJ). Cheers, GTHO (talk) 09:27, 27 February 2008 (UTC)


 * Note: There is incorrect use of bolding in Early history. Can you put the References section in alphabetical order?  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 04:52, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


 * Done OSX (talk • contributions) 06:56, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.