Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 14:10, 23 June 2012.

Horseshoe Curve (Pennsylvania)

 * Nominator(s): Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 00:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe it meets the necessary criteria. Horseshoe Curve was, and still is, a tourist attraction and important rail link. This article was previously reviewed by Arsenikk and DThomsen8. Niagara ​​Don't give up the ship 00:31, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Drive by comments As a war-nerd I'd like to offer the following comments on this article's World War II material:
 * "Horseshoe Curve's importance in the transporting of goods and passenger lead it to be targeted by Nazi Germany in World War II as a part of Operation Pastorius." - "in the transporting of goods and passenger" is poor grammar and is written in the passive voice
 * Changed to active voice. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "During the war, Horseshoe Curve became an important lifeline for the Allied war effort" - that sounds like an overstatement. The North Atlantic was an important "lifeline" for Britain, but individual railroads in the US were much less significant.
 * Restated to be more a statement of fact. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Was the curve guarded for the entire war?
 * I think it was implied it was, but can't find confirm it. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * The 'Construction and sabotage' section seems miss-titled given that there was no sabotage
 * Retitled. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Did the curve play any role in the Civil War? Nick-D (talk) 06:52, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * I haven't a reliable source, but I believe the Union army had it under guard. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:12, 19 May 2012 (UTC)
 * That looks pretty good. I've tweaked the text a bit further, which I hope is OK - feel free to revert if you think my change was unhelpful. Nick-D (talk) 10:23, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done, missing first name on FN31. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:54, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Oops, typo in ref. Thanks for catching that. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 00:40, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Comments: My main concern is over comprehensiveness; the article is quite short (1500w) and at times seems to deal rather superficially with the subject. There are also a few prose issues, both of style and clarity. Here are some specific areas for attention:
 * Lead


 * Clunky: "It was added to the National Register of Historic Places and designated a National Historic Landmark in 1966. Horseshoe Curve was designated a National Historic Civil Engineering Landmark in 2004."
 * Fixed. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * No justification for beginning the second para "Although...", which connects contradictory statements. Thus: "Horseshoe Curve has been a tourist attraction since its opening, and a trackside observation park was completed for visitors in 1879."
 * Fixed. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Last sentence: "Access to the park..." is detail, not lead material.
 * Removed. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Design section


 * The section includes information about function and location, so perhaps a broader section heading is required.
 * Changed. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "Horseshoe Curve has 9 degrees and 15 minutes of curvature and a central angle of 220 degrees." Is there a way of explaining this in less geometrical terms? Not everyone will be able to follow.
 * Reworded. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The following seems overcomplicated: "Horseshoe Curve descends at rate of 91 feet per mile (17 m/km), or grade of 1.73 percent, from an elevation of 1,650 feet (500 m) on the southern side to 1,594 feet (486 m) on the northern." The total descent is 56 feet; wouldn't it be simpler just to say that, rather than give all the info about feet per mile etc?
 * Removed feet/mi, kept grade because its somewhat easy to understand. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 02:28, 2 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Can you say how frequently the rails were "transposed" for the reason you describe? It sounds like a very disruptive process.
 * Have not been able to find a source for that. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Construction and use


 * Some lack of clarity in the first paragraph, which ought to mention specifically the decision to build the curve. The second paragraph, beginning "The curve took three years to complete..." would then follow naturally.
 * Fixed...I think. I may not be understanding you correctly. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * You say when the line opened, but not when work began. It would be interesting to know how long the construction took.
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I think you should have at least an estimate of the present-day values of the construction cost.
 * I would, however, I have no specific source for that, and Inflation is not supposed to be used with capital costs. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Why were extra tracks added in 1898 and 1900?
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * "During the war..." What war?
 * Clarified. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:04, 30 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Post-war


 * This section is rather bitty, without much sense of organised presentation. It is not always clear what the significance of the information is, e.g. "The Pennsylvania K4s steam locomotive 1361 was placed at the park inside the curve on June 8, 1957" – to be replaced later by a different train. Some of the information seems disctinctly trivial, for example "The Altoona Curve, a minor league baseball affiliate of the Pittsburgh Pirates, was started in 1998 and derived its named from Horseshoe Curve".
 * I'm thinking it could be possible to add a paragraph on the effect the curve has had on the region (e.g. the baseball team) and on the railroads that use it. I'm not sure exactly where to place it, but it would remove the triviality. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Decided that the baseball bit didn't add anything, so removed. Elaborated on the importance of the K4s. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:08, 4 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Current operations


 * You have provided a little information on current operations, but have given no details about the level of operations over the lifetime of the curve. Was it once  busier that it is now? In what years did its traffic peak?
 * Added its peak. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 04:38, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

Despite these criticisms, I think this is an interesting and very nicely illustrated article, though it probably needs further ballast and polish to meet FA standards. Brianboulton (talk) 10:58, 26 May 2012 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your thorough review; I shall be working to address all of the criticisms you've brought up. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 03:07, 29 May 2012 (UTC)


 * Later comment: Can the caption to the lead image be made a bit more informative? For example, what are the structures near the ball of the curve, and what is the large, blank, green area? Brianboulton (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support subject to resolution of Ruhrfisch's outstanding concerns, below. I am happy with the treatment of the issues which I have raised. Brianboulton (talk) 08:58, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Image review I will review the article next, but wanted to review the images first. The images are all freely licensed, but I would like to see a link for the source of File:Horseshoe Curve aerial photo, March 2006.jpg if at all possible. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:55, 4 June 2012 (UTC)

Support Comments by Ruhrfisch. This looks good overall and I am leaning towards support, but I have some concerns that need to be addressed.
 * Lead and Infobox
 * I think I would mention/describe the reservoir, park, and highway in the aerial photo as they are pretty clearly visible and it would help the reader understand the layout better
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * United States is linked in the first sentence, but generally is not linked anymore
 * Unlinked. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Would this sentence in the lead It formed an important part of the region's transport infrastructure during World War II, and was targeted by Nazi Germany in 1942 as a part of Operation Pastorius. be better as something like It has formed an important part of the region's transport infrastructure since it opened, and during World War II was targeted by Nazi Germany as a part of Operation Pastorius. Otherwise it sounds as if it was only important in WWII
 * Reworded. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Missing word? ''Since its opening, Horseshoe Curve has been a tourist attraction, with a trackside observation [park? area?] being completed for visitors in 1879.
 * Finetooth fixed it. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Location and design
 * Tighten? ''Horseshoe Curve is a 3,485-foot (1,062 m) segment of the Pittsburgh Line, the Norfolk Southern Railway's main east–west route in its Pittsburgh Division between Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania and Harrisburg, Pennsylvania.[2][a]
 * Tightened. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * This was pretty unclear to me until I looked at a map - I think one problem is that only one dam / reservoir is visible in the aerial photo, and looking at a map it is clear that only one of the three is anywhere close to being located inside the curve: A set of three dams, each descending in elevation from the apex of Horseshoe Curve, form reservoirs owned by the Altoona Water Authority and supply water to the city of Altoona.[5] I think I would say something like "Within the open eastern end of Horseshoe Curve is a dam and lake, the highest of a series of three reservoirs along the valley which are owned by the Altoona Water Authority and supply water to the city."
 * Reworded. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The lead says the elevation change is 122 feet, but here it says Horseshoe Curve descends from an elevation of 1,650 feet (500 m) on the southern side to 1,594 feet (486 m) on the northern with a grade of 1.73 percent.[6][9] which is only 56 feet - which is it?
 * Fixed, forgot to update lead. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Construction and use
 * Add one word for clarity? ''Using surveys done several years earlier, the state's engineers recommended a route [west?] from Lewistown that followed the ridges, ...
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * This may just be because I am a creek freak ;-) but I would identify the two ravines (and note the NRHP nomination form cited does so): Kittanning Run at roughly 11 o'clock, and Glenwhite Run at about 8 o'clock. This becomes important later too - see below
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I would clarify this - add the names of the ravines, etc ''To reduce the grade by increasing the distance between the points by using a curve, engineers constructed an earth fill over the first ravine [encountered ascending, formed by Kittanning Run], cut the point of the mountain [between the ravines], and filled in the second ravine[, formed by Glenwhite Run].[8]
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * I was surprised that there was no mention of when the reservoirs were built, or when the road along / tunnel under the track was built, so I looked at the historic PennDOT maps for Blair county. The oldest is from 1915 and shows the road amd its tunnel under the tracks, and the reservoir / dam. It also shows two small railroads branching off Horseshoe Curve (!) and going up each of the named ravines. I think these need to be mentioned...
 * Was able to find years for the reservoirs, was not able find a year for the tunnel (I suspect it was built with or shortly after the Curve). Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * ... so I looked on Google books and found this 1915 report on both the small railroads (Kittanning Run Railroad and Glenwhite Coal and Lumber Company). Note these both used the Kittanning Point station too
 * Good catch! Added it. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * World War II and post war
 * What I believe is the museum's website here says operation of the park was given by the PRR to Altoona in 1957 - should this be included? Not sure this is a RS, but something to look for
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 23:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Current operations
 * I would add a year to the 51 trains a day sentence (2008 is the ref, so "as of 2008")
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Can more explanation be added to the panorama caption? The historic locomotive is at center, the funicular station is at right (with the reservoir visible behind), but what is the stone building at left?
 * Expanded caption; I believe the stone building is a "watchman's shanty", but can't be sure. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 23:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I was at a store yesterday and looked through a copy of the paperback book "Railroads of Pennsylvania: Fragments of the Past in the Keystone Landscape" by Lorett Treese and on page 203 it says that visitors to the park inside the curve "...can see a watchman's shanty dating from around 1900..." and the locomotive. Full details for the book can be found on Amazon. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:46, 10 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Perhaps include the Altoona Curve baseball team as a See also link?
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 15:37, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

Hope this helps, thanks for a very interesting article. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:09, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks a lot for reviewing it. I believe that takes care of everything. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 23:57, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Everything has now been addressed to my satisfaction, and I have changed to support above. Thanks again for the article, which I beleive now meets the FA criteria fully. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:47, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Support by Finetooth. I've never been to the park, but I've seen the curve through the windows of the Pennsylvanian. I made a few editorial changes to the article a few days ago, and here are two more minor suggestions:
 * In the second paragraph of the lead, a sentence begins: "It formed an important part of the region's transport infrastructure since its opening... ". I would either change "since" to "after", or I would change the verb from "formed" to "has formed".
 * In the "Construction and use" subsection, I would unlink "pick" and "drag" since they appear inside a direct quotation. Alternatively, you could paraphrase instead of quoting directly if you'd like to keep the links. Of the two, "drag" is probably the more unfamiliar to most readers.
 * I believe the article meets all the criteria. The two panoramas are especially fun to look at closely. Finetooth (talk) 18:42, 10 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed "formed" to "has formed", and unlinked "pick" and "drags" in quotation. Glad you liked the panoramas, it would have been neat to recreate the 1934 panorama but that would have been nearly impossible. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 19:20, 10 June 2012 (UTC)

Comments –
 * In Construction and use, what is supposed to be citing the last sentence of the second paragraph?
 * Added refs. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * "A reservior was constructed at the apex of Horseshoe Curve in 1887 for city of Altoona". Add "the" before "city"?
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Feels like a word is missing from "The Pennsylvania also went to great lengths...".
 * I believe you are referring to "The Pennsylvania [Railroad] also...". In an attempt to avoid repeating "the Pennsylvania Railroad" incessantly, I dropped the "Railroad", but if its confusing it can be re-added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * World War II and post-war: "in 1968 forming Penn Central. Penn Central...". Try to avoid this repetition from one sentence to another.
 * Rephrased. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * In "by American Society of Civil Engineers in 2004", should there be a "the" before the organization's name?
 * Added. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)


 * Current operations: Another case of sentence-to-sentence repetition in "or a 288-foot funicular. The funicular...". Giants2008  ( Talk ) 15:31, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Rephrased. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 16:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support – After the fixes, the article appears to meet all of the FA criteria. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:09, 18 June 2012 (UTC)


 *  Comments Support on prose and comprehensiveness grounds - reading through now and looking good so far. Queries below. Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)


 * of a new visitors center - apostrophe in "visitors"?
 * Grammatically that is correct (and I've fixed that), but it appears alot of places dropped the apostrophe. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 *  ...a former "watchman's shanty" is located in the park.. - does this need to be in quotation marks? I'd have thought not....
 * "Shanty" did not seem like the official term for the building and I elected to keep in quotes to indicate a direct quotation. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
 * ok. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:13, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Otherwise looking good on prose and comprehensiveness grounds (though I concede I ain't no train expert...) Casliber (talk · contribs) 05:49, 19 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look at the article; hopefully it was still an interesting read. Niagara  ​​Don't give up the ship 01:15, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Spotchecks
 * Article: At its widest, the curve is approximately 1,300 feet (400 m) across.
 * Source: The rails reached the ridge on the other side of the valley in a great semi-circle 1,300 feet across Horseshoe Curve.
 * Article: Surveys done east from Gallitzin had already determined a suitable route on the opposite side of the valley that would keep the grade manageable. Traversing the valley using a bridge would have created a grade of 4.37 percent, which was too steep for most trains. To reduce the grade by increasing the distance between the points by using a curve, engineers constructed an earth fill over the first ravine encountered while ascending, formed by Kittanning Run, cut the point of the mountain between the ravines, and filled in the second ravine, formed by Glenwhite Run.
 * Source: After a resurvey in 1850, it was decided that the new line was to mount the east slope with a grade of not more than 1.8$, or a rise of 1.8 feet for each 100 feet of distance. Crossing low ridges southwest of Altoona, the line came to a valley running westward and followed it along the side of the ridge on a 1.75% grade. But about 5 1/2 miles from Altoona the valley was found: to split into two ravines, divided by another mountain. Across the valley at this point lay the ridge which could carry the rails on toward the summit at a 1.73$ grade. To have crossed the valley from one ridge to the other would have required a great bridge with a grade of 4.37% much too steep then, as now, for practical railroad operation.
 * Article: The military intelligence arm of Nazi Germany, the Abwehr, plotted to sabotage important industrial assets in the United States in a project code-named Operation Pastorius.
 * Source: The idea of sending saboteurs to the United States was the brainchild of Walter Kappe, a high-ranking Nazi official ... Kappe code-named his mission Operation Pastorius, after Franz Daniel Pastorius, the leader of the first group of Germans to settle in Colonial America, in Germantown, Pennsylvania, in 1683.
 * Article: Starting in June 1990, the park at Horseshoe Curve underwent a $5.8 million renovation funded by the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation and by the National Park Service through its "America's Industrial Heritage Project".
 * Source: Total cost ofthe renovations begun June 1, 1990, is more than $5.8 million.
 * Article: The Blair County Veterans Memorial Highway (SR 4008) parallels the valley west from Altoona and crosses under the curve via a tunnel.
 * Source: ...at the Horseshoe Curve National Historic Landmark is hereby designated and shall be known as the Blair County Veterans Memorial Highway.
 * No issues. Graham Colm (talk) 14:00, 23 June 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.