Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hurricane Bob (1985)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by SandyGeorgia 19:36, 22 August 2009.

Hurricane Bob (1985)

 * Nominator(s): – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 17:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC), Hurricanehink

I am nominating this for featured article because either I have FAcountitis, or I genuinely believe this is among Wikipedia's best work. That's up to you to decide.

In all seriousness, I've been copyediting this article bit-by-bit for a few months with the intention of eventually nominating it, so here we are. wrote most of the initial content, and I've re-organized it, cleaned it up, updated the references, and improved the overall prose. That this article has been steadily improving for three years through loose and informal collaborative effort is why I believe Wikipedia is such a worthwhile project, but enough of this rant. Happy reading! – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 17:53, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

Comment Images need alternative text. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:59, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Whoops, forgot about that. Done. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 18:05, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Thanks, the alt text is present, but it needs a bit of work. "Track map of hurricane" should describe where the hurricane went, since that's the key point of the image. Likewise for "Satellite image of tropical storm making landfall." (landfall where?). The "Map of rainfall totals from hurricane." should say where the rain fell, and should not bother with unimportant details like "bright blue" or the map background. "A peninsula is depicted at the center." is less helpful than mentioning "Florida" directly: more readers will know what Florida is, than will know what a peninsula is. Can you please take another crack at it? Thanks . Eubulides (talk) 20:37, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * If I'm not mistaken, this seems to contradict that. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 20:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * The difference is that here, we are talking about maps of the southeastern U.S. where we can expect a typical reader to know where Florida is and where the point of the image is to say "the hurricane went over northern Florida and into southern Georgia" (or whatever); whereas there, we were talking about relatively obscure islands whose visual appearance is not known to most readers and where the point of the image was to show them what the islands looked like. Admittedly this is a judgment call and reasonable editors can differ in boundary cases; but the general rule of thumb is: what would work better as a description read aloud over a telephone to a non-expert reader? Eubulides (talk) 21:38, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Ah, I see; thanks for the clarification. Should be fixed now. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 22:25, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, it looks good now. Thanks. Eubulides (talk) 22:27, 20 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Cool. :) – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 22:42, 20 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments -
 * http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/tracks1851to2005_atl.txt deadlinks
 * Please spell out abbreviations in the notes. Yes, they are linked, but you don't want your readers to leave your article, they might never return.
 * What makes http://www.tornadoproject.com/alltorns/allhurricanes.htm a reliable source?
 * ,, , , , all refer to the Tornado Project. Also, as far as I know, they get their info directly from the Storm Prediction Center. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:21, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:06, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed the HURDAT link Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:24, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Wrote out NOAA. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:09, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'll leave the last out for other reviewers to decide for themselves. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:59, 21 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, you considered the Tornado Project to be a reliable source at this FAC, for what it's worth. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 18:47, 21 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Dabs; please check the disambiguation links identified in the toolbox. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:27, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fixed. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 20:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - The MH seems rather short.Jason Rees (talk) 12:29, 24 July 2009 (UTC)
 * There are no advisories archived for Bob. Advisory archives for the ATL start in 1991. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:19, 24 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Support - Some notes: I would prefer if this was cited "and as such it was re-used during the 1991 season.". The fourth paragraph of "Carolinas, Mid-Atlantic, and New England" starts to list items with little connection. You could fix it by mixing up the language a bit (such as changing "Rough seas capsized a few boats along the Potomac River" to "Along the Potomac River, rough seas capsized a few boats", and you could remove the period and put "while ____ happened" to connect to the next sentence). Ottava Rima (talk) 04:36, 25 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Done with a bit of copyediting. Thanks for the review and support! – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 22:00, 25 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose : I trust the editors' assessment above of the quality of the referencing. I do not find this FAC reaches sufficiently high standards of writing or breadth.  The writing is not engaging (let alone "brilliant") and feels rather narrow and unpolished: while in places the language is vivid, in most places the article is a lifeless recital of facts, with a rather Boys' Own feel when talking of the effects of the hurricane, e.g., "In Virginia, the storm spawned three tornadoes, one of which destroyed two houses," but little that gave this reader a general sense of what was going on.  Possibilities for improvement:
 * Broader account of the effects of the hurricane: non-meteorological photographs, quotes from eyewitness accounts of the hurricance, more substance in the account of the evacuation.
 * Better writing, communicating more of the sense of a narrative. We have too many unfortunate sentences, such as "Bob began moving eastward, striking southwestern Florida as a minimal tropical storm": the verb striking connects the two parts of the sentences, and jars against both, if you "begin moving", you are not "striking"; one says something like "then struck", or starts the sentence with just "moved"; then, "striking" sounds dramatic, at odds with "minimal"; last, what is a "nimimal tropical storm"? Is it a technical term?  Is it one I should hav e ever encountered before reading this article?
 * Even with all this fixed, I am not sure that I would find this article all that more rewarding to read: the article conveys the sense that the hurricance was not very interesting in the context of the much more interesting hurricanes that it shared a season with. I recommend listing at GA User:Chalst (talk) 09:10, 27 July 2009
 * It was a fairly boring and straightforward storm, certainly not a Camille or Katrina. This, combined with the fact that 1985 was quite a long time ago, makes me extremely doubtful I'd be able to find "non-meteorological photos" and such. Perhaps I could justify a fair-use rationale, but it wouldn't add much in my opinion. The article's not meant to convey a special feeling or describe people's experiences; its purpose is to provide general information about the hurricane itself, boring as it may seem. That said, I'm not sure I understand your concerns with the prose. Some examples of problematic writing would be greatly appreciated, but again, asking that it communicates more of the sense of a narrative is an unactionable objection. It's an encyclopedic article, not a narrative.
 * And for what it's worth, it is already a GA. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:38, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * And "minimal tropical storm" seems more-or-less self-explanatory... – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:46, 27 July 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm going to withdraw my oppose, not because I've changed my mind, but because I won't have enough time to discuss the criticism, and I think it is unfair to make oppose !votes without evaluating efforts made to meet the criticism. &mdash; Charles Stewart (talk) 12:44, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Fair enough, but please don't hesitate to re-review the article should you find the time. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * I added Hurricanehink to the FA nom list, as you said he wrote a great deal of the prose. Feel free to remove it if I made a mistake of some kind. NW ( Talk ) 15:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * Yep, that works. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Image review
 * File:Hurricane Bob (1985).JPG - I am not sure if this is possible, but could you add the .html link as well as the .jpg link?
 * File:Bob1985rain.gif - Same as above image
 * File:TS Bob (1985).JPG - Same as above image
 * File:Bob 1985 track.png - Looks good.
 * NW ( Talk ) 15:13, 28 July 2009 (UTC)
 * All done, thanks. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 15:54, 28 July 2009 (UTC)


 * Note Since Juliancolton is on vacation for the time being, he has asked me to take care of this nomination during his absence. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:39, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Confirmed. Thanks for the help CB. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 00:38, 3 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Oppose Too short to be an FA in my opinion. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 13:51, 11 August 2009 (UTC)
 * This oppose is not actionable. Please review the article in accordance with WP:WIAFA. Thanks, – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 13:55, 11 August 2009 (UTC)


 * It's actionable by expanding the article, and using more sources. This article simply isn't long enough. Now if an expert in the subject comes and tells me that the article covers the matter exhaustively (and reading the article makes this look unlikely) and that all the sources used constitute most of the sources available and they are used exhaustively, then fair enough. It would pass b, but no reason it should have a star (Taran is an article that passes b too; Galam Cennalath is not far off either). Otherwise the FA system and its criteria can be gamed to chunk up a huge list of stars, which is not the spirit of the system. And spirit trumps the letter. As for the letter, we have WP:IAR for this purpose. Cheers, Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 01:20, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Blindly asking for more info without any evidence that the article is not comprehensive is not in the least bit helpful, I'm afraid. The length of an article is irrelevant to its quality (indeed, we have several hundred FAs that are shorter than this, including Tropical Depression Ten (2005) and Tropical Storm Erick (2007). When is an article "long enough" to be featured? I'm sorry, but I don't think there is anything I can do to reasonably satisfy your objection. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:44, 13 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Blindly? Why blindly? Incidentally, I would object to Tropical Storm Erick (2007) and Tropical Depression Ten (2005) if I had seen it. I'm not a robot, and spirit trumps letter, otherwise there's no reason Taran with a minor c/e can't get featured. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 01:48, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Because, with all due respect, you've not provided any evidence to suggest that the article is not comprehensive, and requires more info. I believe all valuable, encyclopedic info has been exhausted. I'd be happy to continue searching if you can point out any areas that are lacking. What's missing? Have you found any major details that are currently omitted? – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * And FWIW, I'd likely support Taran of the Picts at FAC. If it's comprehensive, there's no reason to oppose based on its length. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 02:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well I hope you wouldn't support with op. cit. in the citations ;-) — Ed   (Talk  •  Contribs)  03:31, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, it's pretty clear the article can be expanded using more (more coverage of local effects) and better sources (journals, and so on). I am seasoned enough in editing articles with few sources to know exactly how much one can get out of it. So length is a good indicator of comprehensiveness, which does vaguely bring in one FA criterion. FAs should be there for those articles ... and that I believe is what most Wikipedians probably expect from the process, irrespective of any current "gameable" flaw in the wording. I'm not as familiar with FAs now as I was 2 years ago, but then this article would not have passed. Check out Featured article candidates/Jordanhill railway station/archive1 (3 years ago), which failed largely (though not entirely) due to its length. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 21:00, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * You say that the article "can be expanded using more ... and better sources". It seems that all available sources have been used, and no additional ones have been pointed out. If there are more sources that can (but haven't) been used, then they should be mentioned. "too short" is not an actionable oppose. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) See this comment from SandyGeorgia. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:15, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Also, look through the FAC talk archives for numerous discussions on "short FAs". Dabomb87 (talk) 21:16, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * No, I don't buy that. It's actionable by expanding it. This "not actionable" argument resembles an attempted exploit. But we are not computers, thank you. ;) It's obvious from reading it that the article could go into lots more detail in various places, in the science, in the local effects, and so on. A google scholar search is enough to tell its source use is far from comprehensive let alone exhaustive, and goodness knows what a search on a geoscience bibliographic database would show (if someone can recommend one, that'd be great). Anyways, if it is the case that the closer won't use discretion to enforce the spirit of the FA process, then they can take my oppose as a fail on comprehensiveness. Deacon of Pndapetzim ( Talk ) 21:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Those sources all relate to Hurricane Bob of 1991, a much more significant storm. This is the Hurricane Bob of 1985. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 21:39, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

(outdent) I think the objector has the initial burden of pointing out exactly where the gaps are at present, if they exist, in at least some detail, and it may help him to point out where he thinks gaps could be filled (I think you have to show both gaps, and that they are capable of being filled." Once that is done, the burden shifts to the nominator, to prove him wrong or fill the gaps as desired.  Right now, I don't see that Deacon has met the initial burden, and thus there is nothing to act on.--Wehwalt (talk) 21:56, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * It is now, as I have pointed out usable sources that have not been integrated into the article. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:57, 13 August 2009 (UTC)

Oppose, 1c. Deacon's oppose just became actionable. For example, this New York Times source. There's also a Globe & Mail article I can email you. Dabomb87 (talk) 21:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * At first glance it seems the NYT article more-or-less duplicates existing info, but I'd appreciate if you could send me a copy of the Globe & Mail one. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 21:59, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Has someone checked Google news for the month of the hurricane in question?--Wehwalt (talk) 22:03, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I checked there (link) before I nominated the article, and whilst I could add a few more footnotes, there's really no more useful info as far as I can tell. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 22:04, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The NYT does mostly repeat, but there are a few details that could be used (time of coming ashore in South Carolina, tides, etc.) Dabomb87 (talk) 22:06, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Well, if Julian's touched all the bases (or the equivalent cricket analogy), this is just a tempest in a teapot, then!--Wehwalt (talk) 22:07, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * I also think I was a bit hasty in opposing. There's no point in sending you the Globe & Mail article, as it doesn't say much except "The storm was classified as a hurricane at 5:30 p.m. yesterday when sustained winds within it exceeded 120 kilometres an hour." Dabomb87 (talk) 22:09, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
 * &larr; I was able to scrape a couple more sentences out of an offline source. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:11, 14 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support Seems up to snuff for me, not lacking anywhere for the time of the storm. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 15:54, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Comments from
 * "Hurricane Bob was a minimal hurricane that affected the" I've never heard of a "minimal" hurricane, what is that? Perhaps "weak"? I don't know though; you're the expert.
 * "Bob began moving eastward, striking southwestern Florida as a minimal tropical storm." And here's the "minimal" word again.
 * "Damage was minimal in South Carolina where the hurricane made its final landfall." Comma after "Carolina".
 * "Throughout its path, Hurricane Bob inflicted $20 million in damages" "Throughout its path" is unnecessary.
 * " located 105 miles (165 km) northeast of where the storm made landfall"
 * "Much of North Carolina also received over 1 inch (25 mm) of rain, amounting to as much as 7 inches (180 mm) in Beaufort County"-->Much of North Carolina also received over 1 inch (25 mm) of rain; as much as 7 inches (180 mm) fell in Beaufort County Dabomb87 (talk) 22:58, 17 August 2009 (UTC)
 * All done, thanks. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 19:31, 18 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Reference 1 is Greek to anyone who doesn't understand meteorology. Wasn't there some article that explained how to interpret HURDAT? Dabomb87 (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "An area of low pressure formed developed into a tropical depression" Missing word between "formed" and "developed"? Dabomb87 (talk) 19:46, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "The remnants of a tropical wave entered the southeastern Gulf of Mexico on July 20." The source says "eastern". Dabomb87 (talk) 19:47, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "while located 200 miles (320 km) west-northwest of Naples, Florida." Not in the source. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:49, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "the tropical depression drifted southeastward" "southeast" will do.
 * "turned to the northeast and later to the east." "to the" can be removed (both occurences) without affecting the sentence. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:50, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * These have been fixed. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 20:11, 20 August 2009 (UTC)


 * "entering the Atlantic Ocean near Vero Beach early on July 24 ." The source does not say anything about entering the ocean at that point. Also, there's a rogue space before the period.
 * The source says it was moving northward at Vero Beach and then subsequently mentions it making another landfall in South Carolina; so while it does not explicitly say this, the source still supports it. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Until the above issues are resolved, I  oppose  Dabomb87 (talk) 01:40, 21 August 2009 (UTC)
 * "and made landfall near Beaufort, South Carolina early on July 25 while maintaining winds of 75 mph (120 km/h)." The source does not say anything about the wind speed at the time of landfall.
 * "Bob quickly weakened over land, decaying into a tropical storm three hours after landfall." I don't know where you got "three hours" from.
 * "North Carolina/Virginia" Spaced slash per MOS.
 * "Bob's remnants turned north-northeastward" Unnecessary "-ward".
 * "and continued northeastward " Ditto the comment above. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Everything else is resolved. – Juliancolton  &#124; Talk 01:58, 21 August 2009 (UTC)


 * Support- Good article --  Anh ' ami ' rak    16:41, 20 August 2009 (UTC)
 * Support Well written and sourced. Meets FA criteria. A very good article. Warrior  4321  16:49, 22 August 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.