Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Hurricane Celia (2010)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by Karanacs 13:41, 20 October 2010.

Hurricane Celia (2010)

 * Nominator(s): Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

As part of a continuing effort to keep the Category 5 Pacific hurricanes featured topic alive, I've quickly brought this year's addition to the group up to higher standards fast. As with Hurricane Rick (2009), there was a three month period given from the date the Tropical Cyclone Report was published for the article to be promoted to GA/FA and added into the topic to avoid the topic being delisted. As such, I now present Hurricane Celia, a very powerful, early-season hurricane in an unusually quiet season (for the Eastern Pacific). Since there was very little to add to the article outside of the Tropical Cyclone Report, there is no need for further research and thus I've nominated the article for Featured Status. I hope everyone enjoys reading this article and all thoughts and comments about it are welcome. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 16:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment - one dead external link, one dab link. Nikkimaria (talk) 17:14, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Removed the dead link and fixed the dab. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:18, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Sources comment: I see that all but one of the English sources are cited to one or other pages of the National Hurricane Centre. Most hurricane articles I've looked at recently have used a range of sources, including newspaper accounts etc. Is there any reason in this case for not looking beyond the NHC? Brianboulton (talk) 22:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The storm stayed mostly away from land, so there was minimal media interest in the storm. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 00:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Well, subject to that being OK, sources look all right, no further queries. Brianboulton (talk) 15:51, 9 October 2010 (UTC)

That's all I see. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Oppose at it currently stands. There is no need to have 1,000 words, or 14.7 kb, on the met. history. That seems too long (ie failing FA crit. 4), particularly for a storm that isn't very notable. Also, why the local time? Most tropical cyclone articles do not use local time, since it is unnecessary for meteorological phenomena. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 18:53, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * With regards to what Tito said, I wouldn't mind if the article was moved to Meteorological history of Hurricane Celia (2010), considering there was next to no impact and the storm is notable for its met. history. Then, it would be restructured like the other met. history articles. Hurricanehink ( talk ) 21:39, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My response to that is exactly what you wrote in the edit summary. Hell no. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 07:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe this is a matter of personal opinion on whether or not the section is too long. I personally think that since there were constant changes in the storm, the length of the section is reasonable. Also, it has notability as being the eighth strongest storm in the basin as well as one of a handful of Category 5 storms in the Eastern Pacific. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:14, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * OK, well that's just the reason for my opposition. I don't believe any other hurricane FA's have such a long met. history (especially those without much, if any impact). Hurricanehink ( talk ) 14:28, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Aside from your opposition to the article's length, could you list any other concerns with the quality of the writing (if you have any)? I would greatly appreciate any help you could lend. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 11:47, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * You use the word "Celia" six times in eight sentences in the first paragraph of the lede, and not "Hurricane Celia" but just "Celia". What, are you friends that you can refer to her only by her first name?
 * "Once this shear lightened the next day" - you really shouldn't use phrases like that when it has been more than one sentence away from the last date reference. You do this in the first paragraph of the MH (Operationally, the depression was not warned upon until early the next morning).
 * It'd be good to mention some locations in the first paragraph of the lede, such as where it formed and peaked.
 * I think in the lede you should mention that it's one of X Category 5 hurricanes in the basin, as well as first since Rick. That's an important fact that might draw in more readers, so they don't think it's some generic hurricane.
 * I'd like if there was more explanation on why things happened in the MH. Examples:
 * "and little development was expected to occur"
 * You say development was anticipated within 48 hours, but then a few sentences later you said development was "expected to be slow due to moderate wind shear in the region of the low." So 48 hours is pretty quick for tropical cyclone development. I feel the flow is disrupted when you say this, then that, and then the next sentence say "Oh wait, it did become a tropical cyclone."
 * You mention major hurricane without any indication of what it is.
 * What does it mean for convection to wrap around the center?
 * "Satellite overpasses of the storm revealed that Celia had already begun developing an eye-like feature at the surface, an indication that rapid intensification may ensue." - fix the tense issues. You use past perfect in the first portion (had begun) and then present in the latter (may ensue). BTW, you should clarify that rapid intensification didn't happen.
 * The infrared satellite loop isn't working (unless it's supposed to stay on the one image in the article).
 * "by the afternoon of June 21, by which time" - could you change the wording so you don't have the "by" so often?
 * "During the late morning of June 25, Celia started a rapid weakening trend as it began to take a more northwesterly track into a more stable environment with cooler water temperatures and higher wind shear, all of these conditions are highly unfavorable for tropical cyclones.." - whoa, big sentence. Could you reorganize a bit? Hurricanehink ( talk ) 15:32, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "Although out of the storm's projected path, a precautionary alert was issued for Socorro Island. However" - why the use of however?


 * Comment, leaning towards support. I do not consider either the length of the meteorological history or the local times to be problematic (although I would get rid of the latter, since the storm never affected land, so the connection to any time zone is minimal). In particular, the meteorological history is the interesting part of the article, and it would be excessive overkill to create Meteorological history of Hurricane Celia (2010) (I would likely WP:AFD that thing if it were to come into being, by the way). That said, there are a few simple issues that should be addressed before the article meets WP:WIAFA 1.a:
 * Forming out of a tropical wave on June 19, Celia quickly organized into a tropical storm and later into a hurricane the following day as deep convection consolidated around the center. - clunky, reword
 * Reworded Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:48, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * On June 21, the storm further intensified into a Category 2 hurricane; however, over the following days, Celia's winds fluctuated. - is this even necessary?
 * Better than saying "it strengthened, weakened, strengthened, weakened, strengthened..." Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:35, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * My concern was more with the Cat 2 detail; you could just say that Celia's intensity fluctuated before it reached Cat 5 status. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:22, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Reworded Cyclonebiskit (talk) 11:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Much better. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Over the following 42 hours, sustained winds decreased to tropical storm force and the system began to stall over the open ocean by June 27. - Celia's sustained winds. Otherwise it sounds rather dull
 * Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Hurricane Celia was first identified by the National Hurricane Center (NHC) as a disorganized area of disturbed weather associated with a tropical wave on June 5, 2010 off the western coast of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean. - the precursor of Celia. Otherwise, it sounds like the NHC stumbled into a hurricane off the Cape Verde Islands.
 * Hehe...done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Roughly 18 hours being classified a depression, - roughly 18 hours after being classified?
 * Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * prompting the NHC to upgrade the depression to Tropical Storm Celia. - for n00bs' sake, reword this as prompting the NHC to upgrade the depression to a tropical storm, and to give it the name Celia.
 * Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * with an eye beginning to appear within the storms' central dense overcast.[7] storm's
 * Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * by which time the system appeared to be vertically tilted, having the low-level circulation displaced to the northeast of the mid-level circulation. - needed? not sure, more opinions needed
 * It just explains what being vertically tilted means, since it's not fully clear to the "average" reader. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Still not sure, but meh, ok. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Celia turned due west as it moved around the south side of the ridge previously steering it to the west-southwest. - unclear antecedent for "it"
 * Corrected Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The following morning, the eye reformed the storm became more vertically aligned, allowing it to re-attain Category 2 status. - grammar
 * Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Forecaster Todd Kimberlain at the NHC referred to the unexplained shifts in strength as "puzzling". - period inside the quotes
 * Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk)
 * with some cloud tops being as cold as −86 °C (−123 °F) but, no eye had reformed by the morning of June 24. - not sure why you have a comma after "but"
 * Removed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That evening, the storm further intensified into a Category 5 hurricane, the second storm to reach this strength during June on record. - ambiguous: is this the second EPac Cat 5, or the second Cat 5 anywhere?
 * Specified Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * During the late morning of June 25, Celia started a rapid weakening trend as it began to take a more northwesterly track into a more stable environment with cooler water temperatures and higher wind shear, highly unfavorable for tropical cyclones - I would say, "all of these conditions are highly unfavorable for tropical cyclones." It just sounds too disjointed right now.
 * Changed per suggestion Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:46, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * After becoming embedded within a low-level westerly flow, the system began to slowly execute a small clockwise loop. - the track map doesn't show this; if anything, it shows a counter-clockwise loop. In any case, you should upload the image with --extra 1 for this paragraph to make sense.
 * Corrected the wording, it wasn't an error in the track, I put clockwise instead of counter-clockwise by accident (btw, I always use --extra 1 when making them) Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * On June 22, the National System of Civil Protection in the Mexican state of Jalisco raised the alert level to stage two for coastal areas. - you should include the original Spanish here: "the Sistema Nacional de Protección Civil (National System of Civil Protection) raised..."
 * Done Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Now italicize it since it's in Spanish. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Although out of the storm's projected path, a precautionary blue alert, the lowest level, was issued for Socorro Island. - this makes no sense, reword
 * Reworded Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Replace "out" with "away" for it to make more sense. It's still unclear. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * However, between June 22 and 23, the outer bands of the storm brought unsettled weather to the unpopulated Clipperton Island, a territory of France. Since this island houses no people, the National Hurricane Center did not issue any hurricane warnings for it. - I would recommend rewording parts of this to "the outer bands of the storm brought unsettled weather to France's Clipperton Island. Since this island is unpopulated, the NHC did not issue any warnings for it."
 * Reworded Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * In the National Hurricane Center's monthly tropical weather summary for June 2010, it was stated that the Accumulated cyclone energy (ACE) for the month was the highest on record, - mixed capitalization, fix
 * Fixed Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * WTF is reference #40?
 * It's there to verify the ACE value since there is no other source for that number. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 14:11, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Actually i cant see why you cant use this to cite the Ace Value.Jason Rees (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * That's preliminary ACE, it's not based on the TCR. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 17:23, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why can't you use the NCDC summary? Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Again- "*The (ACE) Index calculations are based on preliminary data." Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:31, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * So? That doesn't mean you can cite Wikipedia as the source. Use the preliminary value or take it out. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:20, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I've removed the value from the article. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 11:46, 12 October 2010 (UTC)


 * Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 20:47, 9 October 2010 (UTC)
 * I believe I've gotten to all of your comments Tito, thank you very much for the review. Cyclonebiskit (talk) 18:53, 11 October 2010 (UTC)
 * A couple of extremely minor things left. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment there is impact from the storm. YE  Tropical   Cyclone  01:46, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Minimal, though, and I believe the article could be better treated as a MH article. --Hurricanehink ( talk ) 01:51, 10 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Why have longer article titles when we don't have to. I support this article being featured as the IMO it does not fail criteria 4a. I loved reading this article from the start and I have read ltierly 60 times since its creation. YE   Tropical   Cyclone  01:59, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

Neutral, leaning weak oppose based mostly on prose concerns
 * The Hurricane Celia disambig link should probably be in a template at the top of the article rather than in See also
 * Need some general copy-editing for grammar and clarity (and "impeeded" is not a word)
 * There was some arguing about this here, so I'm not sure which one is better in this case. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Try to make the article as accessible as possible to non-specialist readers
 * "the storm rapidly intensified to attain its peak intensity" - repetitive
 * Switched. RI is a specific technical term so I switched the second occurrence. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "degenerated into a non-convective remnant low that evening. The remnants of Celia" - repetitive, and first part should be explained or linked for non-specialists
 * "waves from the storm prompted storm advisories" - repetitive
 * I won't go through any more, but read through and reword to avoid repetitive phrasing as much as possible
 * "in the region of the low" - the low what? You have not identified this as a region of low pressure
 * What do you mean by "operationally"?
 * "That evening, the storm further intensified into a Category 5 hurricane, the second storm to reach this strength during June in the Eastern Pacific basin on record" - "on record" should either be placed earlier in the sentence structure or removed entirely. Also, reword for clarity
 * "The second storm on record" would be ideal, agreed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Stacy or Stacey Stewart?
 * Ref 34: formatting should be in English
 * Good catch, fixed. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Ref 30: check date
 * It was in UTC, which made it confusing. Switched to local time.
 * Ref 26: retrieval date? Nikkimaria (talk) 19:26, 13 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Added. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:37, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Comment: I've only looked at the Meteorological History section and have only got a few minor suggestions: Nice article. -Atmoz (talk) 18:36, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "The precursor to Celia was first identified by the National Hurricane Center (NHC) as a disorganized area of disturbed weather associated with a tropical wave on June 5, 2010 off the western coast of Africa in the Atlantic Ocean."—The date in the current position reads oddly to me. Is it better after "first identified"?
 * "...the disturbance moved slowly towards the west-northwest and little development was expected to occur."—It'd be nice to know why little development was expected, but the source for that statement doesn't say.
 * "By June 18, scatterometer data..."—Which scatterometer?
 * ASCAT on MetOp-A. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "...however, it lacked deep, central cloud cover."—Development is related to deep convection, not central cloud cover. Central cloud cover is related to convection, but it's possible to have the cloud cover without the convection.
 * "...slow due to moderate wind shear in the region..."—moderate vertical wind shear, although this almost certainly implied
 * "...the system had become sufficiently organized for the NHC to designate it as a tropical depression"—As far as I'm aware, NHC doesn't designate a depression based on being 'organized'.
 * There have been a few instances recently where the NHC has decided to not designate TDs based on insufficient organization (they say that organization is part of the definition of a tropical cyclone; see Tropical Storm Erin (2007) and its associated Tropical Cyclone Report at, Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "...the depression was not warned upon..."—Oddly worded. Better as "...there was no warning issued on the depression..."?
 * "...deep convection wrapped around the center of the system, prompting the NHC to upgrade the depression to a tropical storm..."—Again. Designation based on deep convection wrapping around the system? Seems wrong.
 * It also has to do with the designation being based on the Dvorak technique, in which intensity is determined by the perceived organization (usually the amount of convective wrapping) around the surface center. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "...Celia had already begun developing an eye-like feature at the surface..."—Satellites can't see eye-like features at the surface
 * I believe (I'm not sure) that has to do with microwave passes seeing an eye structure at low altitudes. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * Random ponder: why does "central dense overcast" redirect to eye (cyclone)? I guess it's related to the outflow from the eye, and there is one sentence there.
 * Mostly because no one has bothered to write a decent article on the CDO. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)
 * "...but it failed to fully consolidate by the afternoon of June 21..."—"consolidate" seems like the wrong word, but I can't think of a better one offhand
 * "Only modest strengthening took place during this time as the system's outflow was being restricted by continuing easterly shear."—An over-simplification. Outflow was only restricted on half the storm, that's how they knew there was shear.
 * "A secondary eyewall..."—If it had a secondary eyewall, it underwent an eyewall replacement cycle, even if it wasn't noted in the discussions. You could pipe secondary eyewall to eyewall replacement cycle, since you already have eye (cyclone) linked plenty of times elsewhere. Hmmm, actually, the source doesn't seem to mention that this is a secondary eyewall, just that the eyewall was reforming.
 * ...indicating that the storm would further intensify once this feature further developed"—Quibble. Not all storms with secondary eyewall will intensify. Most do, but some don't. But referencing above, if it was just the eyewall reforming, the original wording would be correct.
 * "...allowing Celia to re-attain Category 2 status..."—no need for the hyphen in reattain
 * "...Celia started a rapid weakening trend as it began..."—'trend' is an unneeded word
 * ...into a more stable environment with cooler water temperatures and higher wind shear, all of these conditions are highly unfavorable for tropical cyclones..[24]"—True, but not in source. Dunno if it's considered common knowledge enough to not have a source. Also, two periods.
 * Probably should be linked to tropical cyclogenesis, which should mention that. Tito xd (?!? - cool stuff) 21:47, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Comments –
 * "as wind shear impeeded significant development." Is "impeeded" British English? If not, it may be a typo of "impeded".
 * Meteorological history: "with cooler water temperatures and higher wind shear, all of these conditions are highly unfavorable for tropical cyclones.." There's a double period, and the comma should probably be a semi-colon.
 * "Most of convection associated with the system...". Needs one more "the", I think.
 * No need for multiple Baja California Sur links in this section.
 * Impact and records: "This ranks it as the second-strongest June hurricane on record as well, as the eighth-strongest in the basin". Move comma to before "as well".  Giants2008  ( 27 and counting ) 01:22, 16 October 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.