Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ico


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 23:21, 22 November 2008.

Ico

 * Nominator(s): M ASEM 

As one of those video games that is more often considered a work of art than a game, Ico was developed specifically around immersing the player into this story that has maybe less than 20-30 lines of dialog, including nonsensical text, yet is considered one of the more emotionally-moving games of all time, despite selling poorly worldwide.

There is one source Kikizo that may be of questionable reliability but is providing an interview with the game's designer. M ASEM 10:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * What makes http://games.kikizo.com/features/shadowofthecolossus_interview_march05.asp a reliable source?
 * LIkewise http://www.boysoloist.com/artist.asp?VID=334? (which deadlinked for me..btw)
 * This link is OK and active now. &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 18:28, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * http://www.interactive.org/awards.php?winners&year=2002 deadlinks
 * Otherwise, sources look okay, links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Image review
 * The Kikizo link ,as noted, is an interview with the developer. The site itself, I don't have any strong assurance as a RS for general news, but the interview would be legit.  The Interactive Awards link moved (again!) but is fixed.  The Boy Choir/Soloist Directory link is working - as for being an RS, it would likely be the equivalent of IMDB: it is semi-self-published to the extent that entries appear to be monitored but would not base a whole article on it. The only reason it is being used here is to identify the singer that is identified singing that track, and that's the most reliable site that I can find to make that link. --M ASEM  15:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I have two problems with interviews, one they are really primary sources, even when interpreted through a reporter, and in this case it's on a site we're not sure about the reliablity, so how do we know it's been presented without bias/error? The boysoloist site is likewise, marginal enough that I'm not sure that just eliminating the information wouldn't be better than having it from an unreliable site. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:13, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, I was able to replace the kikizo with a 1up interview, so that should handle that one.
 * I'm at a loss what to do with the boysoloist one. I can get you reliable sources that say that a person named "Steven Gregerty" sang the last track, I can get reliable sources that connect a "Steven Gregerty" to Libera, but there no significantly reliable source that connects that they are the same Steven Gregerty - every blog and self-pub source gives this connection.  I could simply remove the info (it is certainly not critical) but leaving it out feels inappropriate.  I'll keep looking to see if I can find anything. --M ASEM  14:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Ok, for the time being, I have removed the reference to Libera, since I cannot satisfactorily make that connection without a source more reliable than boysoloist.com; I still mention his name (that's liner notes) but leave the connection to the reader, or until such time I can find something better. (I'm digging as best i can at archive.org and japanese translations) --M ASEM  22:33, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Scratch that: I just found a reliable source, from music store HMV though in Japanese. I've got it reffed but I am looking to get an accurate quote from it (Google gives me enough to know it's the right statement, just not in proper english to use here). --M ASEM  22:49, 19 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Image concerns addressed. Awadewit (talk) 17:02, 15 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Image:Box-l-jp.jpg - Please fill out the fair use rationale in detail. For assistance, see WP:NFCC and this dispatch. Awadewit (talk) 16:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Expanded appropriately. --M ASEM 16:45, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - I don't understand the plot as it is described in the lead:
 * "The titular protagonist, Ico, is a young boy with horns who is locked away in an abandoned fortress near his village. Ico encounters Yorda during his explorations, the daughter of the Queen who plans to use Yorda's body to extend her own lifespan. Ico seeks to escape the castle with Yorda to prevent this fate from occurring,"


 * If he is locked away in an abandoned fortress, how can he explore? And how does he get to the castle?
 * Not trying to be hard on you! &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 23:50, 15 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I reworded this part in the lead. (To go into how he was actually in a sacraphagus and then got freed would be too heavy for the lead - it's important just that he is placed in this fortress that he tries to escape from. --M ASEM  14:27, 16 November 2008 (UTC)


 *  Comment : The thing that irks me is the audio section. Can you get rid of that infobox (put any information in it in the prose), as its better suited to a separate and individual article dealing with a soundtrack, not a subsection in this article. I'd also like to see the tracklist template collapsible. Combined, these two things make for fairly horrible presentation in that particular area of the article. -- Sabre (talk) 19:30, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I took the infobox out and put the details in the body. As for the tracklist, which uses tracklist, there is no option to allow it to start expanded while allowing it to be collapsed.  Since having things start collapsed is not appropriate for an FAC, I'd rather make sure it is all shown at the start.  (That said, maybe the tracklist template can be changed to add this). --M ASEM  19:37, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. I support. -- Sabre (talk) 19:56, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Boysoloist appears to be a site that allows visitors to add information and I have no idea how much proofing they do. Surely you can use another more reliable source to confirm his work on this soundtrack? - Mgm|(talk) 23:01, 17 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Well, I can go to the liner notes of the album and get the name - that's not the issue (though I'm sure I can find a source that also states this) The problem is that they just present the name - the Boysoloist source is used to connect him to the choir he was in (and I scoured that choir's page and found nothing of use either); otherwise the name is just a name and means little.  As I note, I did look around the boysoloist site and they do have some moderation, a source in the same manner (but without the same visitor rate) as IMDB.  --M ASEM  23:57, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Just respond to everything in a block below this so I don't have to hunt for your comments. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 03:33, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments - Changed to support
 * Lead
 * "Originally planned for the PlayStation in 1997, Ico took approximately four years to develop."- this doesn't really make sense. If it was planned for 1997, it must have been in production before then, right? So it wouldn't be four years to develop it.
 * If it's the titular protagonist, you really don't need to mention his name again.
 * "The game introduced" to keep clear, use Ico again as its the beginning of a new paragraph?
 * "... it was critically acclaimed for these elements and received awards" - it was critically acclaimed for its bloom lighting? That doesn't seem to be the main thrust of reception. Likewise, "received awards" is generic and incredibly boring. Can you give some specifics?
 * "in conjunction with the release of Shadow of the Colossus, the spiritual successor to Ico, developed by the same team." I know its only implied by the spiritual successor bit and not explicitly stated, but the 'developed by the same team' is awkward in the construction and in my opinion unnecessary.
 * Plot
 * "the souls of the other horned children sacrificed to the fortress" what other horned children? As they haven't been mentioned before, axe the "the" before 'other'.
 * "Ico finds he cannot be harmed by the shadows, but neither can he defeat the shadows completely with his simple weapons, though he is able to defend Yorda by driving them away." Awkward, try 'Though Ico cannot be harmed by the shadows and is able to drive them away from Yorda, he finds he cannot defeat the enemies with his simple weapons' or similar.
 * "Yorda that, as her daughter, she cannot leave the castle." Any real reason for the pause created by the commas?
 * "The Queen's spell on Yorda is broken, although now Yorda is a creature of shadow, and she carries Ico safely out of castle and onto a boat, sending him adrift to the nearby shore and choosing not to accompany him. Ico awakes to find the castle in ruins, and that Yorda, in her human form, has washed up beside him." bad. Try "The Queen's spell on Yorda is broken, and as a shadow creature Yorda carries Ico safely out of the castle and onto a boat, sending him drift to the nearby shore..."
 * Gameplay
 * Perhaps you should preface the section with what kind of game it is?
 * "The player is able to tell Yorda to follow him, or to wait at a spot, as well as make Ico take Yorda's hand and pull her along at a faster pace across the environment." Cut down on redundancies? "The player is able to tell Yorda to follow him or wait at a spot. Ico can take Yorda's hand and..." Also, I'm not sure about the player-Ico usage; while I understand there's a difference between saying the player can do this and Ico does that, you can't mix the references such as "the player is able to tell Yorda to follow him".
 * "shadow creatures from the Queen" sent by the Queen, perhaps?
 * Should vortex be linked?
 * "will also need to" this "need to" seems like unnecessary extra fluff.
 * "both Ico and Yorda" -less both as redundancy
 * Development
 * "and no heads-up display elements" this is awkward, rephrase? Also, its head-up display
 * "a connection between two characters" what kind of connection.
 * "] Ico's design aesthetics were guided by three key notions: to make a game that would be different from others in the genre; that would feature an aesthetic style that would be consistently artistic; and that would play out in an imaginary yet realistic setting." This construction doesn't make must sense; "that would feature" doesn't connect to "three key notions"; also, if you're listing, commas are more appropriate than semicolons.
 * ""subtracting design"" doesn't need to be put in quotes after the first use; you've defined the term, let it be used.
 * "After two years of development in 1999" In 1999 only muddles the sentence and offers confusion (two years in one year?). Just remove it. Readers can count.
 * "faced a critical decision"- wouldn't it make more sense if the decision had only two options? Perhaps subbing 'choice' in would make it more expected.
 * "The team" - who? Why couldn't they provide it in time?
 * ", except France," more commas not really needed. Just say "save France" and save the pause?
 * "In the North American and PAL releases, Ico and the Queen's words are given in English sub-titles, and in the Japanese release Japanese subtitles, but Yorda's speech is presented in a symbolic language." So there's subtitles to the subtitles in the Japanese version? Unclear.
 * "Ico's audio featured a minimal amount of music and sound effects." - not loving the continued us of minimal, try synonyms (limited, et al)?
 * "The album was produced by VORN" - VORN?
 * Reception and legacy
 * "The lack of features in the North American release, which would become unlocked on subsequent playthroughs after completing the game, is said to reduce the replay value of the title." - I think considering this is past reception, that it should be formatted in past tense: "the lack of features was said to reduce", et al throughout.
 * Do you really need a subsection for one paragraph of awards?
 * "gaming press" redundant with gaming previous, say 'video game press' to reduce?
 * "In 2004, a" Revise to cut out passive voice: "A novelization blah blah blah in 2004."
 * Half-Life series → Half-Life series
 * If Shadow is a prequel, why is this section called 'Sequel'?
 * "Team ICO is presently working on a game for the PlayStation 3 since at least early 2008, though no details have emerged on its name, the type of game, or what connections, if any, there are to Ico and Shadow of the Colossus.[43][44]" Run on sentence
 * All of the above should be taken care off. The only one I left was the Awards paragraph, simply because, since I've called out the Awards in the lede, taking out the section title won't allow people to jump to that right away.  --M ASEM  14:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)
 * I went through and performed a copyedit, removing redundancies and overlinking. I also changed 'Sequels' to Sequel, as it's not been confirmed whether their new game is in fact part of the series. Regardless, as my issues have been taken care of and I see no new ones, I'll support. -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 17:58, 18 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Support - I am familiar with this article, having done a little copy editing. I commend it for being interesting, enlightening, clearly presented, and  accessible to the non game player (me). I appreciate the copy edits and suggestions made by Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs which improved the article and provided the finishing touches.  &mdash; Mattisse  (Talk) 18:43, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

Notes, per WP:FN, footnotes after punctuation, please :-) Also, for future reference, somewhere in MoS discussions, Tony1 recommends avoiding the user of "#" in prose (OK in tables).  So, for example: would be Also, please work over time at standardizing the date formats in the citations (they're all over the map).  I realize the citation templates are constantly in flux, but it is doable.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 21:26, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * IGN ranked the game at #18 in 2005, and at #57 in 2007.
 * IGN ranked the game at No. 18 in 2005, and at No. 57 in 2007.
 * I spelled out #. All the full dates are ISO, but only the cite video game template (for ingame quotes) currently leaves the date up to autoformatting to complete...and there's a magazine one.  Probably best to convert them int. format for all (gotta grab tony's script)  and see about fixing the vg cite template to be consistent with the other cites - I will do in the next 24hrs but can't immediately. --M ASEM  21:37, 22 November 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.