Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Illustrations of the Family of Psittacidae, or Parrots/archive1

Illustrations of the Family of Psittacidae, or Parrots

 * Nominator(s): Jimfbleak - talk to me?  14:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Edward Lear is today better known for his nonsense tales and limericks, but he was a gifted artist, painting commercially while still a teenager. This 1832 parrot book, although financially a failure, established his reputation as one of the leading nature paintings of his day. Jimfbleak - talk to me?  14:52, 7 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Image licensing looks good (t &#183; c)  buidhe  05:40, 8 July 2021 (UTC)


 * thanks for review. One thing about an FAC for an old picture book is that there are lots of free images! Jimfbleak - talk to me?  10:30, 8 July 2021 (UTC)

FunkMonk

 * I'll have a look soon. Perhaps this could be a good kind of article to group images in small galleries like in for example quagga? Now they kind of form a wall on the right of the article. FunkMonk (talk) 01:20, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Galleries force a particular pixel width so they should be avoided for the same reasons as multiple image templates. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  03:22, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks, yes, I never use galleries if I can help it, and I think you lose thinks to the sections. The Commons link at the bottom makes all 42 plates readily available anyway Jimfbleak - talk to me?  08:29, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, perhaps it could be made possible to use something like the upright parameter, which doesn't force a particular pixel size, as is possible with regular images. Not something to apply here, but I'll see if I can bring it up somewhere. FunkMonk (talk) 11:07, 10 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Looks like a solution might be implemented at some point: FunkMonk (talk) 13:31, 10 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "on the authority of Aristotle" Perhaps good to introduce him as "the ancient Greek polymath" or some such, to show it was even very dated information by that time?
 * added "Ancient Greek philosopher" Jimfbleak - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "and Lear's main contributions to the development of bird painting" This is your first mention of Lear outside the intro, so his name should be spelled out and linked here.
 * Done Jimfbleak - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "had a successful three-year voyage" When?
 * Done Jimfbleak - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "was outdated by 1839" Outdated in what way?
 * I've made it explicit that it was more than ten years later, and that other expeditions had taken place in the interim Jimfbleak - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Spell out and link Lear's name first time it's mentioned in an image caption?
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * You spell out some names again after first mention, wouldn't last names be enough? This includes Anne Wentworth and John Gould, perhaps others.
 * Done, except where necessary to distinguish from Elizabeth Gould <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Plate XLIII from Samuel Pepys's hand-coloured copy of Francis Willughby's Ornithology[1]" Give date for context?
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "and Gould eventually produced 68 plates for the book, acknowledged by Gould. He also produced at least ten plates for Gould's A Monograph of the Ramphastidae, or Family of Toucans." Am I misunderstanding something here, or should the first "Gould" be "Lear"?
 * Sigh... I must have read that a dozen times... fixed now <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Lear's macaw, Anodorhynchus leari was named by Charles Lucien Bonaparte in 1856. Bonaparte had identified it as a new species from Lear's accurate painting in his book." Could benefit from specifying that it was identified as another species in the book, which only seems to be mentioned in the image caption?
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "who was known for the quality of his reproductions of fine art." Only stated in the intro.
 * Done, I've moved the relevant text out of a footnote <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Was there text in the final book?
 * No, I've said that in para 3 of "Production". <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> -  talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * many thanks for review and comments, all done I think <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 11 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Support - Looking good to me now, nice someone is looking after the books. FunkMonk (talk) 12:48, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Thanks again, I enjoy doing the books if I have adequate sources <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  14:16, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Comments

 * 175 copies shouldn't be a number to start a sentence, see MOS:NUMNOTES.
 * I've never really seen the logic of that, but tweaked <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * the teachings of the church do the sources say Christian church?
 * Both sources do, and given that we are talking about 17th century Europe, it could hardly be otherwise <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Histoire Naturelle des Perroquets (1753–1824) what does the year-range mean here?
 * Inadvertently put the author's dates, fixed <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 *  HMS Blossom, commanded by Captain Frederick W. Beechey had add a comma after Beechey.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Lear painted 12 plates of birds and two of mammals for The Zoology of Captain Beechey's Voyage, probably in 1829, when he was aged 17, or 1830, but long delays by another contributor, the keeper of zoology at the British Museum, Edward Gray, meant that the book was more than ten years out of date by 1839, when it was finally published, with several other expeditions having taken place in the interim. sentence is way to long.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * plates to Gould for £50 you convert into current currency in other places but not here, why?
 * Converted <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * He also produced at least ten plates no need for "also"
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Now Lord Derby, he used the grounds of the ancestral home, Knowsley Hall add a comma after "Hall"
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Lear's macaw, Anodorhynchus leari no need for first comma
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Ref 27 needs two ndashes per MOS:DASH.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Refs 38 and 40 need periods after the final pages for consistency. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:46, 11 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Therapyisgood, thanks for review and comments, all fixed I think <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:31, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Hi Therapyisgood. I wonder if you feel able to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously it is not a requirement that you do either. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:03, 27 July 2021 (UTC)

Support from Casliber
Taking a look now....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 23:56, 12 July 2021 (UTC)


 *  Early ornithologies... - odd use of the word, why not just, "Early (scientific) works on birds..".?
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I made these changes, otherwise nothing to complain about really, a nice read. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 02:26, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Look good to me <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Cas Liber, thanks for reading this and your comments, I enjoyed writing it <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:00, 13 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Cas Liber, thanks again <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  12:39, 13 July 2021 (UTC)

Support from EdwininLondon
With the caveat that I am not in expert in the field, I have the following comments. I found the prose easy to read and had to work hard to find any nitpicking comments:
 * north west North America --> I think it is one word, northwest. At least it is in wind directions.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)


 * , and printed by Hulmandel, and --> stylistically not the prettiest sentence. Any chance of a rewrite?
 * tweaked to at least avoid and... and <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Like Lear, Walton often --> is there a reason why you use Walton? Should it not just be Like Lear, Ford often ..?
 * Sheer stupidity and the fact that his first name looks like a surname led me to this, fixed now <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

None of these prevent me from giving my Support for this nomination. Nice work. Edwininlondon (talk) 19:37, 15 July 2021 (UTC)
 * many thanks for review and support <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  08:54, 16 July 2021 (UTC)

Source review - pass
Will conduct one. Hog Farm Talk 06:56, 24 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Sources were all reliable
 * Didn't catch any significant formatting errors
 * Spot-checked several sources and didn't find any issues with copyright violations, source-text integrity, or close paraphrasing.
 * quick check didn't turn up any key literature that is missing

Pass on sourcing Hog Farm Talk 18:02, 24 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Hog Farm, that was pretty painless! Thanks for the source review <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  09:44, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Support from Aa77zz
I wasn't aware that this was here.
 * Ref 4 Kusukawa (2016) p. 306. - not in list of Cited texts.
 * Good spot, added <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I'm surprised there isn't a mention of George Edwards and his A Natural History of Uncommon Birds published in London between 1743 and 1751. See for example here. Edwards visited wealthy houses and made drawings from live specimens - including parrots. There is a chapter on Edwards is Lederer 2019 pages 52–58. Edwards is important in the history of ornithology - many of Linnaeus's descriptions and binomial names were based on Edwards's illustrations. (Lederer mentions nearly 350)
 * Pure oversight, especially since I've got Lederer. I've added a paragraph about Edwards and also added Uncommon Birds to the Selected Bibliography. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * He was the first major artist to paint birds from life.[17][18] - Many of Edwards's drawings were from live birds. Lear is a "major artist" and Edwards isn't?
 * I've thought all along that claim was a hostage to fortune. I suspect that Lear painted a far higher proportion from life than Edwards, but I've dumped that assertion anyway. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Perhaps more later. - Aa77zz (talk) 06:50, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The link in Ref 1 Birkhead & Montgomerie 2009 is dead.
 * removed url <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Consider incorporating 'Note a' on the Histoire naturelle des perroquets into the body of the article. An earlier book on parrots with hand-coloured illustrations seems highly relevant. (BHL has a scan)
 * Done, book already in Selected Bibliography <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * "Large folio" links to Elephant folio - which in term links to Paper size which doesn't exist as a heading and Elephant isn't mentioned in that article which is about modern paper sizes. It would be better to link to Folio where "Elephant folio" (58 cm in height) is mentioned.
 * Done <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * The arrangement of the species was by alphabetical order in Gessner's Historia animalium, and by arbitrary criteria in most other early works. - not very relevant. How did Lear arrange the parrots?
 * I'm not sure if he made it explicit, but it looks as if it's basically aesthetic, with his later, better, paintings in the earlier parts, and the less polished ones later on. Do I need to say that? I put the Gessner comment to contrast with Ray, where an attempt was made at a taxonomic arrangement. Should the Gessner bit go? <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

- Aa77zz (talk) 09:32, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Aa77zz many thanks for review and comments <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  10:23, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * Can something more be said about which parrots are depicted? I notice that there are not 42 different species as on three occasions there are separate plates for the male and female.


 * I've tried from the outset to avoid having a long list of parrots, especially since I have linked the full text in the bibliography, which has the contents here. I think that I have only mentioned 42 plates, I've not said that was the number of species <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  14:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)


 * I think it is important to mention that some of the plates depict species hadn't been described earlier and thus the plates are holotypes and Lear is the authority. These are Australian species - other than the Antipodes parakeet from the Antipodes Islands south of New Zealand.
 * Baudin's black cockatoo - Plate 6
 * Regent parrot - Plate 29
 * Antipodes parakeet - Plate 25
 * Varied lorikeet - Plate 36
 * Pale-headed rosella - subspecies Platycercus adscitus palliceps - Plate 19

- Aa77zz (talk) 11:39, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * The above is messy to source. The plates are specified in: but we use the taxonomy of the IOC:
 * Aa77zz Good idea. I've added these to Legacy, where I already have Lear's macaw, thanks for the refs. I've also linked in Pam Rasmussen. I had an edit conflict in the middle of this, have I missed anything?<b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  14:13, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Supported above. A nice article - well done. - Aa77zz (talk) 14:45, 30 July 2021 (UTC)
 * Aa77zz, many thanks, interesting to write too. <b style="font-family:Lucida;color:red">Jimfbleak</b> - talk to me?  15:04, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 13:16, 31 July 2021 (UTC)