Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/In the Aeroplane Over the Sea/archive2

In the Aeroplane Over the Sea

 * Nominator(s): Famous Hobo (talk) 07:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Alright, this time for real. I nominated this article about a month ago but personal issues meant I couldn't put my full focus on Wikipedia. Anyway, In the Aeroplane Over the Sea is one of the quintessential indie rock albums. Loved by many, but incessantly mocked as well, In the Aeroplane Over the Sea is a weird album. The music goes all over the place with strange instruments like the singing saw and zanzithophone, and the lyrics are...well let's just say I don't think anyone really knows what the lyrics are about. This article has been a passion project of mine, and I think it's about ready to see an FAC nomination. Have at it.

Pinging and. My apologies for not addressing your comments during the first FAC but I believe I have addressed both sets of comments now. Famous Hobo (talk) 07:08, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Support thought it had only minor issues before and looks better now. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:45, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Media review

 * "Illustrates Jeff Mangum's abstract lyricism, in particular the focus on the life of Anne Frank." is an inadequate fair use rationale. (That purpose would be served better with a quotation from the song.—short quotations are to some extent exempt from NFCC)
 * You expanded the NFCC rationale, which now reads "Additional:To demonstrate the abstract lyricism found with In the Aeroplane Over the Sea. The audio sample contains the lyrics "With sparks that ring and bullets fly / On empty rings around your heart / The world just screams and falls apart". The audio sample illustrates how songwriter Jeff Mangum forms a coherent narrative by stringing together surreal imagery and seemingly unrelated subject matter." However, this doesn't work. If the purpose of this non-free content is to show the lyrics, the audio sample does not meet NFCC criteria because it could be replaced in the article by a short quotation from the lyrics without a loss of reader understanding.
 * Would something like this work? I still need to mess around with templates as it doesn't look good right now. Famous Hobo (talk) 19:57, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I would say that seven lines is too long as it's a significant part of the original song. The point could be made by the first four lines which would be more suitable. Likewise, the audio clip "In the Aeroplane Over the Sea" could be trimmed as the point in the fair use claim is readily apparent from the first ten seconds, and the "Purpose of use" part of fair use rationale should be expanded. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  20:07, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

"Frank's importance to the lyrics is the subject of debate however" is excessively vague. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  10:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * File:In the aeroplane over the sea album cover copy.jpg fair use would be stronger if moved to the part of the article where the cover is discussed.
 * Other media is free. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  10:03, 11 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment
 * I believe I have addressed the first and third issues you brought up. I am confused about what you mean regarding the In the aeroplane over the sea album cover copy.jpg. Do you want me to move the image from the infobox down to the artwork section? Or keep the image in the infobox and duplicate the image in the artwork section? Famous Hobo (talk) 18:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yes, it would be better for the cover to be moved to the part of the article where it is discussed in text. NFCC doesn't allow multiple copies of a non-free image on the page. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  22:37, 12 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Unfortunately I don't think I should do that. It's common practice that every album article that has an album cover should put the album cover in the infobox. If you look at any of the featured articles under the albums section, you'll see that every article puts the album cover in the infobox. Famous Hobo (talk) 01:03, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Comments by Aoba47

 * This part, "Robert Schneider worked with Mangum", is the first time Jeff Mangum is mentioned in the lead so I would use his full name and clarify his relationship with Neutral Milk Hotel.
 * I am uncertain about the "unique" word choice in this part: "he developed a unique recording technique that involved heavy compression". I understand why it is used, but I could also see someone viewing it as a peacock term. I would remove it as the sentence already points out that he developed this technique.
 * Link Neutral Milk Hotel the first time the band is mentioned in the body of the article.
 * In the lead, I would add the year that On Avery Island was originally released to the prose.
 * In this sentence, (The single brought enough exposure to convince Mangum to record more material under this name.), I would say "music" rather than "material". I have received notes in my past FAC/GAN reviews to avoid using the word "material" in this context as it is unnecessarily vague.
 * Lo-fi music is linked twice in the body of the article. AllMusic and Entertainment Weekly is also linked twice.
 * A link for acid trip may be helpful.
 * For this sentence, "Love is another prominent lyrical theme, although the concept of love takes on different forms.", I would just say "the concept" as I do not think the repetition of love twice in the same sentence is necessary.
 * There is a slight repetition in these two parts "To give the disparate drawings a cohesive look, Bilheimer" and "To add onto this effect, Bilheimer splashed" since they both use a "to..." sentence structure and start with Bilheimer.
 * For this part, "In 2003 Creative Loafing writer", there should be a comma after "2003".
 * I have always been told to only use audio samples in album articles if they represent the album's overall sound. I would adjust the audio sample's caption to better convey how this audio sample does this.
 * I believe the new description does a good job at describing the album's overall sound.
 * I think this is much better. Thank you for revising it. Aoba47 (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Does Winkie explain how the album was the subject of revisionist history? It is not uncommon for albums to get a more positive reception years later, and revisionist history makes me think that critics either put out a false impression the album was better received upon release or something else.
 * I've seen some articles say that In the Aeroplane Over the Sea was a critical success immediately, but I can't find them right now. Instead I rephrased it.
 * That's actually what I thought when I rad the sentence, but since a source does not explicitly cover them, then I agree with the decision to rephrase this part. If you do find those articles again, feel free to add this part back in of course. Aoba47 (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Should Ferris Wheel on Fire be mentioned in the "Mangum's disappearance from the public eye" section as he did release more music with the band?
 * I don't believe so. The music from Ferris Wheel on Fire had already been recorded by the time the band broke up, so Mangum didn't work on it after his disappearance.
 * That makes sense to me. Thank you for the explanation, and I agree with you. Aoba47 (talk) 18:47, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * For this sentence, (Although Mangum was expecting a lot out of the newly expanded band, many outsiders noted how caring and nurturing Mangum was toward everyone involved.), I would replace the second instance of "Mangum" with "he" to avoid the repetition. Aoba47 (talk) 18:10, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Working on this. Also, what do you think of the quote box in the lyrics section? A reviewer suggested it would work as opposed to an audio sample. Famous Hobo (talk) 23:52, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The quote box seems fine to me. I agree that it is better than an audio samples, as I have primarily seen audio samples used to convey information on a song's sound/composition not the lyrics. Since the lyrics are so bizarre, I would think including them is helpful to giving the reader a better feel for the album's content. Aoba47 (talk) 03:20, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Alright, I believe I have addressed your comments. I left individual notes for the comments that were of particular note. Famous Hobo (talk) 05:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing everything. I'll look through the article again in the next day or two to make sure that I did not miss anything. Aoba47 (talk) 19:01, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

I support this for promotion. I will let another editor cover the source review, but all of the sources are reliable and high-quality for a featured article. Aoba47 (talk) 16:28, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Coord note
I'm adding this to the urgents list to hopefully get a few more reviews, and also to the source review list. --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:55, 23 July 2020 (UTC) How is the source review looking? --Ealdgyth (talk) 14:50, 15 August 2020 (UTC)
 * Should be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:30, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Page ranges should consistently use pp. and endashes
 * What makes Dickinson a high-quality reliable source? Grantland? Tiny Mix Tapes?
 * The Smith link does provide a publication date. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:49, 26 July 2020 (UTC)
 * My apologies for the late reply:
 * Endashes have been added. I'm not sure what you mean by consistent use of pp., I feel like all of the multi-page references use pp.
 * The Dickson source has been removed. The Grantland source was written by Steven Hyden, a music critic that has written for other reliable sources such as The A.V. Club (with that said though, the Hyden source doesn't play a major role in this article and can be removed without losing too much information). Tiny Mix Tapes is considered a reliable source according to WP:ALBUM/SOURCE.
 * Added publication date to the Smith source. Famous Hobo (talk) 14:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Coordinator comment - This has been open for a long time and despite being on the urgents list, it doesn't have the necessary support for promotion. Therefore, I will be archiving it shortly and it may be re-nominated after the customary two-week waiting period. -- Laser brain  (talk)  11:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC) -- Laser brain  (talk)  11:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)