Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Indian Camp/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 03:42, 14 July 2011.

Indian Camp

 * Nominator(s): Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

"Indian Camp" is the first short story Ernest Hemingway had published. Some critics consider it his most important, while others consider it to show the genesis of many of his themes in subsequent stories and novels. This, happily, is shorter, than my last nomination here. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:34, 21 June 2011 (UTC) "Indian Camp" is a short story written by Ernest Hemingway". Maybe indicate that Hemingway is an American Nobel prize-winning author like in SAR? TGilmour (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment It is nice to see Hemingway's another work for FAC (with The Sun Also Rises being the first).


 * I've thought about this and decided I'd prefer not to. I didn't mind that you added it to SAR, which will be on the main page, and is an important book, but this is a small short story, in the back water of Hemingway's work. For the same reasons that we don't put birthdate and deathdate in each page, I don't think it's necessary to add Nobel Prize winning for every Hemingway article. I'd prefer to link into the main Hemingway biography where it's mentioned in the second or third sentence of the lead. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:27, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Be consistent in whether you use 1964 or 1973 for Young refs
 * Fixed by Truthkeeper. TGilmour (talk) 23:58, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Check formatting on ref 15
 * Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 23:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * ref 17: dash in page range
 * Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 23:49, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Where is Durham? Cranbury?
 * Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 23:51, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Strychaz or Strychacz?
 * Strychacz. Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 23:53, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Check alphabetization of source list. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:13, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Everything's okay. TGilmour (talk) 23:57, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you Nikkimaria. Although TGilmour fixed ref #15 I intend to switch that out with a hardcopy edition. I've misplaced the book, but will pick one up at the library tomorrow, and reformat then. I'll post here at that time. The rest have been fixed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:21, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Ref 15 has been fixed and made consistent. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:42, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Support Comments by Ruhrfisch I am leaning towards support, but have some concerns that I would like to see addressed first.
 * 1) I assume both books were published in Paris - if so, this sentence should probably say so. During their absence from Paris, Hemingway's first book, Three Stories and Ten Poems was published; months later a second volume, in our time (without capitals), was published. Also could the sentence avoid using "was published" twice? Perhaps the last phrase could be something like "followed months later by a second volume, in our time (without capitals)."?
 * 2) Missing word? The small volume included six vignettes and a dozen short stories [by?] Hemingway.[1]
 * 3) *"By Hemingway". Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 06:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 4) Since he has already had two books with stories in them published, this sentence makes no sense to me It was Hemingway's first piece of fiction to be published and the first for which he was paid—less than $10, but he was thrilled to see his work in print.[7] Also is the month of publication known (and if so, can it be included here)?
 * 5) I would also specify that the book In Our Time was published in New York City (not Paris) in 1925
 * 6) Us seems somewhat unencylcopedic in In "Indian Camp", Hemingway shows us the events that shape the Adams persona. Perhaps shows the reader would be better?
 * 7) *Fixed. TGilmour (talk) 06:31, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * 8) Can this be related to the chronology of events in the story as published? Is young Nick left alone in the woods before or after helping with the C-section? In the cut section, later published as "Three Shots", Nick is left alone in the forest, terrified of dying.
 * 9) Unclear to me - I know that both Hemingway and his father committed suicide (and suspect his father was dead before this story was ever written). I have not read all of the Nick Adams stories - does Nick kill himself too? Does the character of Nick's father? Young thinks it unavoidable to focus on the fact that the principal characters in the story—the father, based on Clarence Hemingway, and the boy, based on Hemingway himself—end up committing suicide; and Kenneth Lynn writes that the irony to modern readers is that both characters in "that boat on the lake would one day do away with themselves".[24][25] I think a sentence before this that explains who kills themselves - ie just the real Hemingways, or them and the characters of Nick and his father - would help. Perhaps it could be a note, but I think a sentence would be clearer.
 * 10) My understanding is the original in our time collection (no caps) did not include this story. Starting the Reception and legacy section with When in our time (without capitals) was published in Paris in 1924—in a small-print run from Ezra Pound's modernist series through Three Mountains Press—the writing style attracted attention. thus is a bit confusing (at least to me). Perhaps if something were added to  "Indian Camp" received considerable praise. that would help? So something like: When it was published the next year, "Indian Camp" received considerable praise.  Not great, but you get the idea.
 * 11) Not really actionable, but what happened to the uncle - how is he not in the boat the next morning? How does he get "home"? Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch  &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 04:19, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Dear TGilmour, please do NOT convert my numbered list to a bullet point list (I have changed it back). I did this because of Sandy Georgia's request here. I will not move your comments, but the idea is that you are not supposed to break up my points, but instead respond to them by number below (i.e. Number 2 is fixed). Thanks, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 17:13, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you Ruhrfisch for the comments. I believe I've covered / fixed everything. I've removed the bit about "Indian Camp" being the first piece he sold, which doesn't make sense in light of the other books being published earlier, but will research that a bit more and clarify it when I have answers. I've added to the plot section that uncle doesn't return. We don't know what happens to him, so not much I can do there. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:27, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I have switched to support - nicely done. I still do not know where the fragment that became "Three Shots" came in relation to the final story - was Nick left alone in the woods before the C-section or after? Apologies if I missed it, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 00:10, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * He was left in the woods the night before they went to the Indian camp, which I added. I'll see if I can tweak it a bit more. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:23, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks - I have struck all my quibbles above. Thanks again for an interesting article, Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 01:03, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the good review and the support. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Image review
 * Does NARA use ID or archive numbers to facilitate locating materials? If so, it would be helpful to include this image's number
 * File:ErnestHemingwayHadley1922.jpg: if the photographer is unknown, the "life of the author plus 70 years" tag would not be correct - it's quite possible for a photographer in 1922 to have lived until 1941 or later. The image is likely PD, but not based on this rationale. The PD-US tag may be correct, but you would need to provide information on the image's first publication. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:24, 23 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the image review. I've added the NARA archive ID to the passport photo. I've fixed the license for the second photo and added that all these Hemingway photos from JFK library were gifted to the public and entered into the public domain.  Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:42, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Note - I contacted the JFK Library to check on the copyright status of all their public domain Hemingway photos. Basically Mary Hemingway donated the licenses and photos she and Ernest owned the copyrights to and the US Governemnt (JFK Library is a branch of the US NAtional Archves) has made them PD. I have been in contact with and am going to make a Commons license for all the PD Hemingway images from thel ibrary with an OTRS tag for the email. Ruhrfisch  &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 03:30, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Support - A well-written and seemingly comprehensive article.  ceran  thor 21:22, 24 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks for reading and for the support. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:05, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * My only niggle is the "qtd." I don't know if that's just your personal style, but I'd rather quoted was just spelled out. Otherwise, it's a wonderful article.  ceran  thor 15:59, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * I follow MLA style, which is typical for subjects in the humanities. Their style manual isn't available on-line, but this link shows in the "Indirect sources" section that "qtd." is correct. I've always done it that way. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:21, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

TCO support. Very important writer and then an important piece for him. In addition to its famousness, it is intrinsically interesting because of the harsh surgery that a boy watches. This will be a highly clicked-through Front Page article, with its juxtaposition of sex, violence, and children. You present it very readably also. I had never read the story, but feel educated, now. Nailing exactly what we should be doing as an encyclopedia.

My vote is based on hours of reading for content and prose. Will send separately a longish list of very minor suggestions, that do not change my support. Major suggestion would be to try to get "guttier" in the writing within the Writing Style section. (Keep all the litrary concepts and terms, but eschew "the fact that". Don't say "events of his life", say "his life". That sort of thing.  Given the topic is already a little academically remote, even more reason to aim for clean prose.) I did not check image rights, endnote formatting, or source materials (for content or copyvio), but have no impressions there would be any problems. I'm not a literature scholar, but the reference list sorta passed my Bayesian sniff test for being sound. Kudos and thank you.TCO (talk) 20:09, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
 * Thank you for spending the time reading and for the support. I'm pleased with your reaction - it's a small article about a small story, but seemed to me important to do it right. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:36, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

Has anyone done any spotchecks? Karanacs (talk) 20:17, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I've only used one oneline source - the rest are books and journals. Obviously I can't do it myself (though I did doublecheck the online source and it was fine) so would appreciate if one of the other reviewers could have a look. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 19:12, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I have access to The New York Times and checked both articles from it used as references here. The sentences in the article referenced to them accurately reflect what is in the newspaper pieces, and I did not find and copying or too close paraphrasing. Ruhrfisch &gt;&lt;&gt; &deg; &deg; 20:34, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Thanks! Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:34, 13 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment: On my display the layout of the images results in a considerable amount of whitespace in the article body. Perhaps the images could be re-arranged to eliminate this? Maury Markowitz (talk) 12:42, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Hi, thanks for the comment. I don't see it on my display but will try to get to a different monitor later in the day. It's a small page with only three images - I've tweaked a bit, but can you tell me where you see the whitespace? Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:59, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * I have TOC turned off, so the space that it would use at the top isn't there. As a result, the 2nd image, the couple, pushes the H1 below it down about 3 inches. I'm wondering if the first image is useful in context? Perhaps the 2nd would be a better lead? Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:30, 12 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Would you like me to email you an image? Maury Markowitz (talk) 13:31, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * That's odd - I"ve turned off the toc and it's still formatting okay for me. Maybe we can see what others have to say, or what they see. As for images, we're using the ones from JFK library that have links - so go ahead an add the link to the article talk-page. A lot have already been uploaded. I'd prefer not to use the one with Hadley in the lead - Hemingway was the author, so it makes sense to have him at the top, in my view. 13:41, 12 July 2011 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.