Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Insane Clown Posse/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:46, 7 June 2008.

Insane Clown Posse
The article has been successfully listed as a GA, and after a lot of hard work, I think that it's ready for Featured Article candidacy. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 03:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Nominate and Support. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 03:12, 31 May 2008 (UTC))

Oppose
 * What makes the following sources reliable?
 * http://www.publicitywhore.com/pwblast28/OTW/shaggy.html
 * http://www.murderdog.com/archives/icp/Insane_Clown_Posse.html
 * http://www.mediafire.com/?fzik40fxjkv
 * http://www.solie.org/titlehistories/htjcw2.html
 * http://www.solie.org/titlehistories/ttjcw2.html
 * "Members Joseph Bruce ("Violent J") and Joseph Utsler ("Shaggy 2 Dope") met in a suburb north of Detroit and participated in various backyard wrestling rings, developing the skills and showmanship that they would eventually utilize during their careers" - Which suburb? - please be specific if possible.
 * "The album sold enough copies before being recalled to reach number 63 on the Billboard charts" - No sales figures available?
 * "While Abbiss told the press that Disney had stopped production of The Great Milenko to avoid further controversy" - This sentence doesn't seem to make sense when you read the sentence that comes before it.
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC))


 * "Disney claimed that the boycott was not related to the company's discontinuation of the album, stating that their review board had "messed up" and that once executives learned of the album's "inappropriate" lyrics, they decided it "did not fit the Disney image." - Signs of redundancy in places, this is just one example. This sentence reads fine without "that" being used three times.
 * Rewritten. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC))
 * There are other examples of redundancy throughout the article - please get a copyeditor new to the text to go through it. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 10:40, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

— Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 10:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * The prose is good, but
 * Links checked out fine with the link checker tool.
 * Article has been copyedited by Startstop123. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 20:43, 2 June 2008 (UTC))
 * As shown by Laser brain and others, this needs another copyedit - but before that, I would suggest withdrawing this and working on it some more to weed out any POV. There are still sourcing problems, and problems with comprehensiveness throughout I'm afraid. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 17:16, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * What makes http://www.livedaily.com/ a reliable site? I can't find an about us page.
 * Just a note, current ref 59 Williams Margo "Friends thought helping Gay Bar ..." is blocked by some ISPs, so I wasn't able to check it's reliablility.
 * I share the above concerns about Publicity Whore and MurderDog. I didn't see the others in the article, though, so no idea if I would have an concern with them or not.
 * Otherwise sources look good. Links checked out okay with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:35, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


 * Comment — LiveDaily is a music news and concert ticket website. Although Publicity Whore and MurderDog are not well-known websites, the comments in their interviews with Utsler and Bruce check up with what the duo has stated in regards to the fued in video interviews. These links are the best sources I have been able to find for this information, aside from a series of YouTube videos uploaded by a fan, and I don't think that those would be allowed here. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 14:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC))
 * Comment — I removed the LiveDaily link in favor of a printed source. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 03:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC))


 * Oppose
 * Where are the Musical style and Influences sections? They are needed to make a band article comprehensive. (See R.E.M., The Smashing Pumpkins)
 * I have written a "Style and influences" section. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:37, 1 June 2008 (UTC))


 * No music samples?
 * I added a couple of samples, one from Carnival of Carnage, the other from The Amazing Jeckel Brothers. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 11:49, 1 June 2008 (UTC))


 * None of those non-free pictures except the album cover seem to satisfy WP:NFCC #8 "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." indopug (talk) 16:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
 * I removed the Psychopathic Records logo, but kept the other images, as they illustrate significant information (their mainstream success and their live performances). (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC))
 * AMG discusses the music of each album in reasonable detail; see if you can't pick common styles to all their records as well as how their music has evolved/changed over time (that "earlier work features a rawer, minimalistic hip hop sound, while their later work features a more rock-oriented sound." is a good start, but needs expanding). You can also see Radiohead for guidance. You should discuss their lyrics: "racist", "crass", "sexist", "juvenile" etc seem to be buzzwords. All-in-all, just go through what Rolling Stone, Allmusic etc have to say about their music, image etc and try to summarize. indopug (talk) 13:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC))
 * No need to mention the guests who appeared into every album; that's unnecessary detail and is meant for the album articles. Eg: "which featured guest appearances from Ice-T, Ol' Dirty Bastard and Snoop Doggy Dogg." and "featuring appearances by comedians John G. Brennan, Harland Williams and Rudy Ray Moore, and punk band The Misfits". indopug (talk) 13:44, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 02:48, 2 June 2008 (UTC))


 * Oppose, some basic work needed before this is ready. Before I can even review the prose, you'll need to fix your links to sources.  All of the MTV news stories are broken links.  The fair use images have to go&mdash;you don't have a good rationale for using any of them. -- Laser brain   (talk)  03:23, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment — I rewrote the fair use rationales for each of the images. MTV's website appears to be down for the moment, but these links were working the last time I checked them, and should be working again in the next day or so. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 04:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Okay, will check MTV again tomorrow. For the images, I should have been more clear:  I don't think there is any rationale for using them.  The album cover can be used in the article about the album only.  The live images are replaceable with free alternatives.  I would just remove them - insisting on fair use images in this article will quickly sink the nomination. -- Laser brain   (talk)  04:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Removed fair use images. Added another Commons-licensed image from Flickr. Took my own picture of a shelf of Faygo and added it to the article. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 05:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Comment - Laser brain, the MTV links are working fine for me. — Wackymacs ( talk  ~  edits ) 07:19, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Wait a sec - since when were fair-use album covers categorically not allowed in main articles? They are fine per policy "for identification only in the context of critical commentary of that item (not for identification without critical commentary)." I got Stereolab to FA with plenty of album covers, with the necessary critical commentary in the text. - Merzbow (talk) 22:02, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments: After reviewing the prose today, my opposition stands. It's not up to the professional standard required by FA criterion 1a.  It's also not properly sourced per criterion 1c.  I found issues in almost every sentence. In my opinion this needs further research, attention from a strong copy-editor, then a more substantive peer review (contact editors from the volunteer list). Suggest withdrawing to work on it and coming back when it's ready. Some examples follow, just from the first few paragraphs:
 * The lead is too short and does not summarize the main points of the article.
 * What else needs to be summarized? (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))
 * What else is discussed in the article? Check the lead on other musical article FAs. -- Laser brain  (talk)  16:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Expanded lead. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))


 * Much of the History section relies on primary sources but includes more than basic facts (interpretation and POV). Primary sources are OK for basic facts like DOB and family but nothing else.
 * I don't see any POV or interpretation. I think the article does a pretty good job of detailing ICP's history, while remaining as neutral as possible, and offers some objective criticism of the individual albums and their style of music. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))
 * You don't see it because you wrote the article. Need secondary sources. -- Laser brain   (talk)  16:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "Bruce and Utsler founded the independent record label Psychopathic Records with manager Alex Abbiss, which produces and distributes works by Juggalo musicians, in addition to Bruce and Utsler's own music." Poor organization and unfamiliar terminology.. what are "Juggalo musicians"?
 * That would be Juggalos who rap or play in rock bands (like Zug Izland or Motown Rage). Rewritten to read "which distributes music by hip hop and rock acts inspired by Insane Clown Posse, in addition to Bruce and Utsler's own music." (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "Joseph Bruce ("Violent J") and Joseph Utsler ("Shaggy 2 Dope") met in a suburb north of Detroit and participated in various backyard wrestling rings, developing the skills and showmanship that they would eventually use during their careers." Lots of issues.. what is participating in a backyard wrestling ring? "Skills and showmanship" is POV sourced to a primary source.  Need secondary sources.
 * Took out the "skills and showmanship" remark. Rewrote the rest of the paragraph for clarification. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))
 * Still need secondary sources. -- Laser brain  (talk)  16:40, 4 June 2008 (UTC)


 * "... in the ghettos of Delray" Colloquial use of "ghetto" is incorrect and unsourced.
 * Changed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "Bruce, Utsler and Hill formed a gang, calling themselves the Inner City Posse." Why not "... a gang called Inner City Posse"? -- Laser brain   (talk)  21:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 07:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

It's GA, but it really needed more prose work before coming to FAC. Here's some stuff from one section... dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 08:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)
 * Several of the quotes in the Style and influences section aren't attributed in text, and thus are rather awkward/meaningless.
 * "Insane Clown Posse's earlier work features a rawer, minimalistic hip hop sound, while their later work features a more rock-oriented sound." - Active voice would work better here.
 * 2nd para of this section has a few "also" one after the other.
 * "Insane Clown Posse has influenced similar acts, such as Twiztid, Blaze Ya Dead Homie, Anybody Killa and Boondox." - How? Says who?
 * I made a few changes here and there (removal of repeated uses of "also"), and fixed the part about acts ICP has influenced to correspond with All Music Guide. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 10:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC))

Comments
 * "music.[62][4] The word" — Refs in ascending order
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "increased sales [14] and" — one extra space
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "charts [36] and has" — same here, extra space
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "various backyard rings." — link "backyard rings" otherwise we just think it links to backyard
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))


 * "who had reportedly paid $1 million to buy" — first mention of currency, so use US$ per WP:CURRENCY
 * Fixed. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 18:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC))

Gary King ( talk ) 16:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.