Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Isabelle Eberhardt/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11:30, 18 June 2017.

Isabelle Eberhardt

 * Nominator(s): Freikorp (talk) 11:44, 26 May 2017 (UTC)

This article is about an incredibly unique woman. Eberhardt challenged both gender and racial norms, explored extensively, spoke five language fluently, survived an assassination attempt and became a successful writer before a tragic death in 1904 at the age of 27. Freikorp (talk) 11:44, 26 May 2017 (UTC)
 * ,  This review has four votes of support, a source check and an image review. Is there anything else you'd like me to address? Sorry to be impatient but I'm confident this article meets all the criteria and I've got another article I'm keen to nominate here. Freikorp (talk) 10:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Isabelle_Eberhardt.jpg: when/where was this first published? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
 * I've no idea when this was first published. It was the only image already in this Wikipedia article before I started working on it. See my last comment below regarding author death.


 * File:IsEberhardt.jpg needs a US PD tag, and if the author is unknown how do we know they died over 70 years ago?
 * Done (regarding tag). See my comments below regarding author death.


 * File:Slimane_Ehnni.png: when/where was this first published? If the author is unknown, how do we know they died over 70 years ago? Nikkimaria (talk) 17:32, 27 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The image of Slimane Ehni is the only one I uploaded. As per the details at the file, I got it from a book published in 1968. The author met with people who knew Isabelle in order to write the book; I assume he got it from one of them. To the best of my knowledge, this is where it was first published, though I can't prove this.
 * As for all the images in regards to the author being dead for 70 years: I can't explicitly prove the authors died more than 70 years since we don't know who the author is. That being said the images were taken at the very latest in 1897, 1904 and 1907 respectively, but in all three cases probably several years prior to that. The average life expectancy in the year 1900 was 31. Personally I think it's a reasonable assumption the authors died before 1947 (70 years ago), but as no author is given for any image this cannot be explicitly proven. If this is an issue, I'm happy to delete all the images and upload the infobox one again under fair-use, which I'm sure would be justifiable since the subject has been dead for 113 years. Let me know what the best course of action is considering the circumstances. Freikorp (talk) 13:48, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * See this discussion on Commons. If we don't have a confirmed pre-1923 publication date, and/or a confirmed author date of death, absent another rationale it would seem we can't use any of the three as PD. An upload under non-free biog-pic would likely be justifiable. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:30, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Removed all 3 commons photos. Re-uploaded infobox image under fair use. Freikorp (talk) 00:03, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've since discovered the infobox image was taken by a photographer named Louis David in 1895, but I can't find any information about when he died. Freikorp (talk) 13:23, 1 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Seems there are many interesting images that could be used which have been removed, which seems a shame. If they were first published before 1923, they could be uploaded locally to Wikipedia as PD-US, though not Commons. FunkMonk (talk) 12:50, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments by Finetooth on prose
 * This is an interesting article about an interesting woman. I have a few comments and questions, below. Most are minor, but in some cases I yearn for more detail or clarification. Sources may or may not be available to answer all of my questions, but I thought other readers would be curious about the same things.


 * Lede
 * ¶1 "Eberhardt, educated in Switzerland by her father, published short stories under a male pseudonym as a teenager." - Slightly smoother would be "As a teenager, Eberhardt, educated in Switzerland by her father, published short stories under a male pseudonym."
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶1 "made her an outcast by European settlers" - "to" rather than "by"?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶2 "She was accepted by the Qadiriyya, an Islamic order, which convinced the French administration that she was a spy or an agitator." – Since the Islamic order didn't convince the French, maybe re-wording to "Her acceptance by the Qadiriyya, an Islamic order, convinced the French administration that she was a spy or an agitator."
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶2 "In 1901 she was ordered to leave Algeria by the French administration, but was allowed... "– Flip to active voice as in "In 1901 the French administration ordered her to leave Algeria, but she was allowed..."?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶3 "Eberhardt had been in possession of several manuscripts..." – Better make clear that she wrote these. Maybe "Eberhardt's poss<essions included several of her unpublished manuscripts...".
 * Another editor has taken it upon themselves to reword this (see here). Let me know if you think this isn't an improvement or if you still think it could be better. Freikorp (talk)
 * Yes. That's better. I added one more clarifying word. Please revert or alter if you disagree. Finetooth (talk) 15:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)


 * Early life and family background
 * ¶2 "de Moerder accepted the son as his own" – "Accepted" in what sense? A legal sense? In writing?
 * Clarified that he gave the child his last name, hopefully this clears up any confusion. Freikorp (talk) 12:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ¶2 "was registered as Nathalie's illegitimate daughter to avoid acknowledging Trophimowsky's paternity" – Why was it important to avoid acknowledging Trophimowsky's paternity? The reason for the lie is unclear to me.
 * I have no idea. This is what the article looked like before I overhauled it: That line was one of the few things I kept, and I can't read the source since it's a PDF in German. I've deleted this, and expanded the paragraph with additional info on the overall subject of paternity.
 * "... speculated that Eberhardt's biological father was the poet Arthur Rimbaud, who was in Switzerland at the time. Other historians consider this unlikely, also citing Nathalie and Trophimovsky rarely being apart, Isabelle's birth not impacting negatively on their relationship, and that fact Eberhardt was also Trophimovsky's favorite child as evidence he was her father." - Unfortunately, this creates more questions than answers. It was not clear to me until I read the Choutien biographical essay that you cite that Nathalie and Trophimowsky emigrated from Russia nor was it clear that Nathalie was a member of the Russian aristocracy. Knowing the latter perhaps helps makes sense of the Arthur Rimbaud speculation since Rimbaud's presence in Geneva at the same time as Nathalie would otherwise make her no more likely to meet him than any other man who happened to be in Geneva. There seem to be important contextual things like this that are missing from the article. (This is a more minor point, but you have spelled Trophimowsky as Trophimovsky in this sentence. I don't know which is correct. The sentence has other errors as well; e.g., "that fact Eberhardt was also". Finetooth (talk) 16:43, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Grammar error corrected. Spelling made consistent. Different sources spell it differently; It's probably an issue with translation - I'm guessing either could be considered correct. Working on other issues now. Freikorp (talk) 00:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I'm off to work now; back in several hours. I've tried to do the best job addressing this issue that I can right now, let me know if you think it needs more work. Freikorp (talk) 02:44, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ¶3 "were forbidden to learn anything not approved by him" – Such as? What sorts of things would Trophimowsky want to keep his daughter from considering? I ask partly because of the conflict between "well-educated" and "forbidden to learn".
 * I don't know. The source reads "He forbade them any schooling except that which was filtered through his own violently personal prejudices. Isabelle learned six languages (...) philosophy, metaphysics and chemistry were thrown in as makeweights." I'm happy to just cut the statement about forbidding non-approved education if you like. Freikorp (talk) 12:07, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * More would be better than less, but if no reliable source exists for this missing information, I'd leave out "were forbidden to learn anything not approved by him". His biases are partly apparent from your description of him, and children who have only one teacher and no other significant input will have an unusually filtered view of the world. Finetooth (talk) 17:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Removed for the time being. I'll add it back with more detail if I find a more detailed source. Freikorp (talk) 00:07, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Move to North Africa
 * ¶1 "Nouvelle Revue Moderne" – This journal appears in the last paragraph of the preceding section as La Nouvelle Revue Moderne. Which is correct?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶2 "Eberhardt travelled to Bône with her mother in May 1897." – Was this meant to be a temporary excursion, or did the two intend to stay permanently? Does the trip imply a split with Trophimowsky?
 * I've clarified that they reolcated there rather than traveleld, and I've also added information about her mother's split with Trophimowsky to the eralier section. Freikorp (talk) 13:05, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Finetooth (talk) 19:01, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ¶2 "disapproved of the amount of time Eberhardt and her mother spent with Arabic people" – Why not "Arabs" rather than "Arabic people"?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶2 "Eberhardt and her mother converted to Islam, and she published stories in the local French newspapers." – Are the two halves of this sentence connected logically? Were the stories about Islam?
 * No, they're not connected. I've separated them into two separate sentences. Freikorp (talk)
 * The split solves one problem, but it would be nice to smooth the logical flow somehow. Did these things happen at about the same time? Finetooth (talk) 19:08, 31 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I can't find overly specific information on timing, though I have found the name of a novel she started writing at the time and the name of a story that was published. Freikorp (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * ¶2 "Her mother died on 28 November 1897" – What did she die of? Did she know she was ill when she left Europe for Africa?
 * I found a source that says it was a heart attack and have added this accordingly. My existing source doesn't mention the cause of death, though states she "had been ailing for some time", without giving any further indication of the time frame. Freikorp (talk) 12:45, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * OK. Finetooth (talk) 19:01, 1 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Travels to Europe
 * ¶2 "However, Eberhardt met the widow of Marquis de Morès." – Maybe "While in Paris," rather than "However,"?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶3 "This ostracised Eberhardt from the French authorities..." – "This ostracised Eberhardt from" doesn't seem right. How about "This alienated Eberhardt from"?
 * . Freikorp (talk)
 * ¶4 "...the French inexplicably ordered her to leave North Africa..." – Why "inexplicably"? The expulsion seems to follow naturally, given the French concerns about her.
 * . Freikorp (talk)


 * Legacy
 * ¶1 "Eberhardt had a number of manuscripts when she died." – To avoid confusion, maybe "Eberhardt's estate at the time of her death included several of her unpublished manuscripts."
 * I'm not sure if 'estate' is the right term; it strikes me as too formal. I mean, we're talking about a handful of possessions in a destroyed rented mud hut. She had no property to speak of. Do you think there's a better term or do you think that is the most appropriate? Freikorp (talk)
 * On reflection, I think "possessions" would be better than "estate", which, as you say, is too formal. Finetooth (talk) 15:20, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * . Freikorp (talk) 23:28, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * That's all. Finetooth (talk) 19:13, 28 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for your comments . I've addressed most of your concerns and will hopefully get to the remaining ones soon. Freikorp (talk) 13:40, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Looks good so far. Just a friendly heads-up: those "done" image templates slow down the page loading. A similar . text template is better. Finetooth (talk) 15:33, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * To avoid confusion about who said what, adding them on the line below my comments, and adding your signature would be better as well. Finetooth (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Changed images to text templates and retroactively added non-date signatures to previous replies. Freikorp (talk) 23:28, 29 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I've attempted to address everything. Let me know what you think. Freikorp (talk) 13:38, 1 June 2017 (UTC)
 * All look fine now. A most interesting article. Switching to support on prose, as noted above. Finetooth (talk) 03:12, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Source review from

 * Ref 9 (Review by Eve) is not formatted consistently with the other refs - the author isn't first, date's not after author, etc. See ref 47 & 48
 * Ref 44 (Bayer) should have the same bibliographic information as the refs in the bibliography
 * I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors.
 * Earwig's tool shows a couple of spots of concern that should probably be looked at and corrected.
 * Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 11:20, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks so much for your review. I've fixed the reference issues, and I've gotten the copyright violations from that one source down by over 20%. Most of what seems to be matching now is the titles from her books, as that particular source contains her full bibliography, as does the Wikipedia article. Let me know if there's anything else you'd like me to do. Freikorp (talk) 07:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I figured it was mostly the titles, but better to point out and do some tweaks than have a mob come after you if it's on the main page....Ealdgyth - Talk 16:07, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Support Excellent work with this article. As with what was said at the peer review, I think this article meets the FA criteria on prose. I couldn't find any issues with it at all. Well done! JAG UAR   11:49, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Definitely an interesting read. There is, however, a wee bit typo in the Early life and family background: Aroundy 1872 Nathalie gave birth to Augustin;... Also, probably best if you could just use the [sic] template instead of enclosing it with box brackets on this sentence clause found under Move to North Africa: In 1895 she published "Vision du Moghreb" [sic] (English: Vision of the Maghreb). Other than that, the nominator did a fine job with this article, so I give him my Support. Blue sphere  06:43, 13 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Support by Bluesphere

Support on prose. A very fascinating read. I made a few mini-edits but did not see anything else needing changing. Moisejp (talk) 00:50, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 11:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.