Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/James Rowland (RAAF officer)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 15:47, 8 July 2012.

James Rowland (RAAF officer)

 * Nominator(s): Ian Rose (talk) 02:46, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Following on from Colin Hannah, here's another RAAF Chief who became a State Governor. Compared to Hannah's, Jim Rowland's governorship was uncontroversial but not without its interesting side, one author describing him as "the first vice-regal whistleblower". His Air Force career also broke the mold in a few ways, as he was the first RAAF Chief who: This is currently GA, and A-Class at various Wikiprojects. Any and all comments welcome! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:46, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Joined the Air Force in World War II
 * Commanded the RAAF personally, rather than through a committee
 * Was from the Engineering Branch, as opposed to the General Duties Branch, i.e. the pilots' club.

Comments. No edits, a few comments, none stopping my support. - Dank (push to talk)
 * I don't personally have a problem with this sentence, but I'd have to turn in my copyediting merit badge if I didn't point it out: "The CAS was nevertheless required to be a member of the Air Force's aircrew stream so, although already a qualified pilot, Rowland had to transfer from the Technical Branch to the General Duties Branch." Consider this change: "... aircrew stream; Rowland, a qualified pilot, had to transfer ...". You can kind of get the meaning from that, and there's a general sense among copyeditors that if you can kind of get the meaning without the qualifiers, then 3 qualifiers in a row ("so, although already") must be more than you need.
 * Fair point; I felt that the "so" was useful to emphasise causality but trimmed the "although already" so there's one less qualifier. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * According to Air Force historian Alan Stephens, Rowland considered that the "collective wisdom" engendered by the Air Board had been generally beneficial to the RAAF, and believed the new arrangements led to "'paralysis and arrogation of decision making', and empire building in the Public Service component". [I left out my usual quotes here]: I take it that Rowland said "decision making" etc. and Stephens said "Public Service" etc., but perhaps that could be a little clearer. If you do need quotes within quotes, here and below, replace '" by ' " and "' by " '.
 * Yes, that's right. Heh, I wouldn't be in business here without Al Stephens but just occasionally I'd like to alter his expression... Implemented your suggestion. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "set in train": Any objections to "set in motion"? Here's the Google ngram.
 * None at all -- done. Thanks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:01, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support on prose per standard disclaimer. - Dank (push to talk) 18:43, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Sources and images but no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC) Comments Nice work as usual Ian. This is relatively short for your articles on RAAF chiefs, but I imagine that this reflects the odd fact that sources are harder to find for more recent military officers, and Rowland appears to have enjoyed a controversy-free career (helped by heading the RAAF during one of its duller periods no doubt). I've added a couple of odds and ends about him today, but I don't think that this reaches the level where I can't review the article. My comments are: Spotchecks Support My comments are now addressed. Nick-D (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * File:Two_Mirage_III_of_the_Royal_Australian_Air_Force_1.JPEG returns 404 error
 * FN10: page notation
 * Does the Korbl title include a hyphen?
 * FN31 vs 43. Nikkimaria (talk) 19:45, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
 * All done, except the image link -- from 2006 and obviously gone dead over time -- doesn't show up in Wayback Machine so may have to think of something else... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed image. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 07:13, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I liked both those additions. I had in fact perused the F-111 book and was going to add something along the lines you did but got impatient trying to word it neatly, went on to Williams' interesting governorship tidbits, and never made it back to Lax... :-P Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Rowland joined the Pathfinder Force" - 'joined' implies that he volunteered for this duty - is this correct? Otherwise 'was posted to' or equivalent might be better.
 * Heh, it wasn't supposed to imply he had a choice but I agree your wording makes that clearer. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * "Rowland led trials on many of the Air Force's early jets" - this is a little bit awkward (mainly as 'led trials on' is sort-of passive). You could replace this with something like "Rowland led trials programs involving many of the Air Force's early jets".
 * Okay. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * At the risk of becoming unpopular, the page range in citation 1 is probably too wide given that it's referenced seven times in quite a few different contexts. Can you reformat this to individual pages?
 * Heh, there's less to that than may appear to meet the eye. High Fliers is a book of mini-bios, much like the Australian Dictionary of Biography. The pages are quite small and the printing quite large, plus one of the pages is a portrait of the subject, so there's only three pages of prose, which together hold no more info than the average ADB article, and probably less. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, fair enough then. I'm not familiar with this book. Nick-D (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * As a suggestion only, you might want to briefly note what No. 3 Aircraft Depot's role was given that we still don't have an article on it (and this role was much more interesting and important than the unit's name suggests!). Nick-D (talk) 11:24, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I really wish you'd stop reading my mind... ;-) I was going to add a line on what it did, then thought bugger it, now I've done all the service flying training schools I might start on redlinked aircraft depots as a distraction -- if you can wait a little while, that might be the simpler solution as far as this article goes... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That makes sense. Nick-D (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FN10 (Nelson, From Wagga to Waddington, pp.37–38): no problems, though you could explicitly note that master bombers had to circle over the target area at considerable risk to themselves.
 * I double-checked Nelson and I think he only implied the above rather than stating it explicitly, at least on the pages I've used -- perhaps I missed something? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, I must have read it elsewhere. It's true though! ;) (and explains why so many of the master bombers ended up being both decorated for bravery and shot down)
 * FN17 (Stephens, Going Solo, pp. 354–357): no problems, though it appears that the minister reached this conclusions separately to Rowland which doesn't quite come through in the text of the article at present
 * I felt that the wording wasn't implying direct causality -- if I changed "the same" to "a similar", does that sound better? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:23, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * That sounds sensible. Placing Rowland's views directly alongside those of the minister's implies that there was some connection, which doesn't seem to have been the case. Nick-D (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Agree, and only mentioned them in the same breath because the source did -- anyway that little change is done. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FN18 (Susans, The RAAF Mirage Story, p. 12): no problems
 * FN25 (Stephens, The Royal Australian Air Force, pp. 296–297): no problems
 * FN27 (Stephens, Going Solo, p. 80) and FN28a (Stephens, Australia's Air Chiefs, p. 11): checks out, and your phrasing to clarify what are Rowland's words and what are Stephens' in this somewhat complex passage is well handled
 * FN35 (Dennis et al., Oxford Companion to Australian Military History, pp. 338–339): says that McNamara was the "second RAAF officer" to be the Chief of the Defence Force, not the first (this is presumably counting Scherger's period as the Chairman, Chiefs of Staff Committee as being equivalent to the CDF, which I think is broadly correct). Nick-D (talk) 12:07, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * The emphasis intended was on "commanding" the three services, which CCOSC never actually did. I could probably reword, but now I re-read it I think it's debatable whether that guff is in fact necessary, given we link to a decent article (yes, all right, it's one I took to GA...!) about McNamara anyway -- WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:36, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I agree. The first time I read this sentence I actually thought it was Rowland who became the CDF, and had to double back. Nick-D (talk) 23:25, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Done (with a different tidbit thrown in). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Many tks, Nick. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:07, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Comments: Supported below looks good, only a few small comments thus far.
 * "senior commander in the Royal Australian Air Force, serving as Chief of the Air Staff (CAS) from 1975 to 1979." I'd add (RAAF) after Royal Australian Air Force.
 * " on the family's 3,000-acre rural property" Might want to add a conversion here.
 * "At 17, he entered the University of Sydney to study aeronautical engineering but left in May 1942 to enlist in the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) as a pilot under the Empire Air Training Scheme." Might want to add a comma before "but" here.
 * "in solitary confinement, he was scheduled" Is solitary confinement common enough to be delinked here? ditto for " being "the first Viceregal whistleblower" for"
 * There is some inconsistency with comma usage: "In 1952 he was appointed" vs "In 1957, he raised concerns"
 * "a consequence of defence reorganisation in the wake of the "Tange report" in 1973" Might want to add a brief mention of what the "Tange report" was. Mark Arsten (talk) 16:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Think I've done all those -- tks for reviewing! Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 17:09, 23 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Support: Alright, the few quibbles I could come up with have been resolved, and I'm satisfied that this meets the FA criteria. A worthy addition to the Australian Milhist series. Mark Arsten (talk) 15:58, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Much appreciated, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 16:52, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Support Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:22, 8 July 2012 (UTC) Cheers. Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:22, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Should RAAF Staff College be linked?
 * Yep.
 * I thought the National Medal was a long service award?
 * Doesn't the citation imply as much?
 * Why isn't Air Vice Marshal James Flemming red-linked? He is in List of Royal Australian Air Force air marshals.
 * I think I've stated elsewhere I'm dubious about red-linking 2-stars just because they're 2-stars, even if according to our current notability standards I could do so. I mean he may well qualify for an article for more than just his rank anyway, I haven't gone into it...
 * "University of Sydney" is linked on its second appearance.
 * I think I meant to link to the list of chancellors, as in the lead -- done.
 * Link "Labor" to "Australian Labor Party"
 * Done.
 * In "Labor Premiers", "premiers" should not be capitalised.
 * Done.
 * "As Governor of New South Wales, Rowland held a dormant commission to serve as Administrator of the Commonwealth" That is completely true, but he actually served as Administrator not merely because he was the Governor of New South Wales, but as the senior state governor, if you see what I mean. Also, you should probably link "Administrator of the Commonwealth" to Administrator (Australia).
 * Fair enough -- added something but feel free to tweak if you think it can be better expressed.
 * Any idea what he died from ? (NB: Lady Faye also died from cancer, in 2011)
 * Him -- 'fraid not, but will keep an eye out. Her -- will look for newslink and put it in if I find it.
 * Tks for review/support, mate. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:25, 8 July 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.