Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jason Sendwe/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2018.

Jason Sendwe

 * Nominator(s): Indy beetle (talk) 04:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

This article is about Jason Sendwe, a prominent politician of the Democratic Republic of the Congo's early years. For a time he was the preeminent leader of the Luba people of Katanga Province and was the central government's "in-man" inside the territory, fraught with secessionist bitterness. He rose and fell like man of legend; in the words of British journalist Ian Goodhope Colvin, "Jason had battled so long for his Baluba idea...had seen victory, worn the leopard skin, been carried on the shoulders of his people...become a minister, touched power and money, lost his aura and perished." This article passed GAN back in March, and since then I've filled in the biographical details with other sources. -Indy beetle (talk) 04:17, 4 November 2018 (UTC)

Tony1
1a, just the lead:
 * "He served as Second Deputy Prime Minister of the Democratic Republic of the Congo (then Republic of the Congo) from August 1961 until December 1962 and as President of the Province of North Katanga from July 1963 until his death." Does "second" need the cap? Surely it's not part of some title? Personally, I'd be inclined to downcase all position-names (president, too), unless they come directly before a name. There are lots of caps even without that. But it's up to you. I see "deputy premiership" and "president" below ... that's nice and smooth ... so why not take the easy path and to it for all? I see a fully capped BALUBAKAT. A comma after "1962" would be in order in a sentence of that length and complexity.
 * The Manual of Style reads, "Standard or commonly used names of an office are treated as proper names (David Cameron was British Prime Minister; Hirohito was Emperor of Japan; Louis XVI was King of France)". Thus, for all of the specific government offices I refer to directly, I capitalize them. Sendwe was indeed Second Deputy PM, as Christophe Gbenye was the First Deputy PM at this time (it appears to have been a matter of protocol). BALUBAKAT is not quite an acronym, but is shorthand for the party he led (it's pronounced Ba-lu-ba-kat, not B-A-L-U-B-A-K-A-T). About half of the sources list it in all caps. Comma added.
 * "He also espoused nationalism"—what does "also" add?
 * I was differentiating from his pro-Baluba stance. Seeing as the way I've worded it has that former ideal embedded in foundation of the BALUBAKAT, I've excised the "also".
 * "after the termination of Belgian rule"—why not a simple word? "end". Then, "desired to obtain" ... why not "wanted to gain"?
 * Changed to "end" and "wished", respectability.
 * "but lost the power struggle to his rival"—"the" says to the reader, you know which power struggle I'm referring to: it's been mentioned above, or it's common knowledge. I think you need "a".
 * It seemed to me it would be obvious there was some maneuvering to be done if Sendwe wanted to "to obtain control over the government"; apparently not. Changed to "a".
 * "Sendwe opposed the breakaway state and rejected Tshombe's entreaties for him to join the rebel government, rupturing relations between the two." What are the two? Between Tshombe and the rebel government?
 * Clarified as between the two men.
 * Suddenly present tense? "In early 1963, he increasingly focuses his activities"
 * Typo corrected; changed to "focused".
 * "His popularity dramatically decreased"—among whom? This brings up a major point ... nowhere are we told something critical: is it a voter democracy or a closed system of power?
 * Clarified as His popularity among the local population dramatically decreased. To what system of power are you referring to? A provincial presidency in the Congo at this time was an office awarded to a person on a vote of the relevant provincial assembly. That was the normal process, though things in the country were a little hectic at this time and the relevant source for the information isn't clear on whether Sendwe assumed the office by virtue of a vote or simply took over when he forced his predecessor to resign.
 * "Sendwe's demise greatly demoralised the Baluba, and his image thereafter drifted into obscurity."—what does image mean here? reputation?
 * Changed to "reputation".

It's not of FA quality. Perhaps it might be brought up to standard throughout, but we expect not to have such a density of issues in the lead, and don't want this on the list for six painful weeks. Do you have copy-editing support from others? Tony (talk)  04:37, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The "density of issues" in the paragraph I wrote a few hours ago was some clunky word choice (which I just fixed, so they are easily rectifiable), your misconception of MOS on office names, and some unfamiliarity on your part with the sources' information on the subject. Must this stall the FAC right here before a look is taken at the rest of the text? -Indy beetle (talk) 05:26, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Being accusatory isn't helpful. What gives you the idea that I'm micsonceiving MOS on capping of job titles? I wrote: "But it's up to you." Did you read my post? I'm not happy at your response. Tony (talk)  05:51, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Did I fail to act upon your comments? -Indy beetle (talk) 17:55, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * You issued a false accusation (as yet not withdrawn) and yes, you did act on my comments. Tony (talk)  01:49, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * The false accusation being the MOS thing? You said "Personally, I'd be inclined to downcase all position-names (president, too), unless they come directly before a name...But it's up to you. I see "deputy premiership" and "president" below ... that's nice and smooth ... so why not take the easy path and to it for all?" That statement still contradicts MOS, I believe. We have don't a choice on whether or not to follow MOS (it's not "up to" me). I'm sorry for my initial hostility, but I still don't see how I was technically wrong. -Indy beetle (talk) 02:01, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * And I'm getting rather sick of hostility from reviewers, who are ending up corrupting this forum (see below for that). My understanding is that MOS leaves it open. That is why I said "It's up to you". You're complaining of "my misconception of MOS". I can do without the bullying. Tony (talk)  03:18, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * If I may, "reviewers, who are ending up corrupting this forum" and "bullying" don't sound any less "accusatory" than anything I've said so far. Shall we both start over? -Indy beetle (talk) 04:05, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * You haven't withdrawn your accusation. Tony (talk)  05:54, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Well let's agree to disagree on the nature of the applicability of MOS. -Indy beetle (talk) 06:10, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * No, that's completely irrelevant. You accused me of "misconception of MOS on office names". I did not refer to en.WP's MOS. It was not the source of my comment. Tony (talk)  06:47, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Were you unaware of the relevant MOS section? MOS and and policy aren't exempt from application because an individual hadn't recalled it. -Indy beetle (talk) 19:09, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Are you unaware that we are talking completely at cross-purposes. This is a waste of time. You accused me falsely. You should withdraw the accusation. Tony (talk)  03:35, 6 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I am aware this is a waste of time, but I'm not going to withdraw an accusation on the grounds of falsehood when I don't believe it was. You didn't answer my question ("Did you read my post?"). -Indy beetle (talk) 03:40, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

Coord note
This nom hasn't progressed since the exchange above so I'm going to archive it. I know getting input at PR is a challenge but I'd suggest trying it before a re-nom here. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 12:25, 3 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.