Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jello Biafra/archive3

Jello Biafra
Self-nomination. This article has been worked on extensively in order to push it to feature quality. All previous complaints about it have been resolved, and I believe it is ready now. -- LGagnon 05:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong support It's definitely the best thing I've ever seen written about Biafra since that Goldmine article back in '89. Additional comment - Before folks complain about the "lists" (the discography), I should note that for a subject like Mr. Biafra, it's quite important. -- CJ Marsicano 06:29, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. This is a good start, but--
 * "Jello Biafra came up with his name as an ironic combination of a non-nutritionally valued corporate food product and mass starvation." This needs to be footnoted.
 * Image:Jellobiafradkdays.jpg needs a fair use rationale. Also, you need to say more about the video the screencap came from (was it from a live Dead Kennedys show, or an interview, or something else? And when?)
 * "Biafra believes the trial was politically motivated; it was often reported that the PMRC took Biafra to court as a cost effective way of sending a message out to other musicians who have "offensive" content in their music." Both of these statements need to be cited.
 * "How this alleged harm was discovered and the authorities' decision to press charges were disallowed by the judge." What?
 * "Biafra opposed Levi's due to his belief that they use unfair business practices and sweatshop labor." Needs citation.
 * "Biafra's first popular song was the first single by the Dead Kennedys, "California Über Alles". The song, which spoofed California governor Jerry Brown, would be the first of many political songs by the group and Biafra. Not long afterward, the Dead Kennedys made a second and possibly bigger hit with "Holiday in Cambodia"..." The boldfaced phrases need to be justified somehow. Obviously, a listing on the pop charts would not be a relevant metric for judging popularity in this case. So how should we identify "California Über Alles" and "Holiday in Cambodia" as being popular and relevant?
 * "Interestingly, he also supports the use of air marshals on commercial flights, highlighting the fact that Biafra's beliefs challenge both liberal and conservative politics." How does this emphasize a split with both liberalism and conservatism? No left-wingers nor right-wingers who I know are opposed to having air marshals on flights. For that matter, why is this noted with the word "interestingly", implying that there is widespread opposition to the practice?
 * The last paragraph (before the discography) is really poor prose.
 * Andrew Levine 07:03, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Footnoting it would make the second paragraph a bit small. Also, the sentence before it is used to explain that one; moving it would make the paragraph ackward.
 * I've just handled your screenshot complaint. Let me know if it needs more work.
 * The citation for the trial is there too now. It fits both parts of the sentence.
 * I'll address the rest in a little while. -- LGagnon 19:32, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I removed the odd statement about the judge (apperantly someone added that when I wasn't looking).
 * There's now a reference for the Levi's comment. -- LGagnon 20:50, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * As I mentioned below, independent music's success isn't judged the same as the RIAA stuff. There isn't really a Billboard Top 100 Indie Chart (I could be wrong, but I know that there wasn't one back then).
 * The air marshal comment is gone now. I didn't add that myself, and I was planning on removing it if someone felt it didn't belong (as I didn't like the fact that the quote was uncited).
 * I'm not sure what you mean about the last paragraph. Please elaborate. -- LGagnon 20:59, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Asserting the popularity of "Holiday in Cambodia" and "California über Alles" is still a problem. You are correct to say that "Underground music's popularity isn't really measured the same way as the RIAA stuff" but you do not propose any alternate means of measuring it.
 * The problem with the last paragraph is it looks like something a 14-year-old wrote for his English class. It's a marked contrast to the more decriptive paragrpahs preceding it. Andrew Levine 21:18, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I rewrote the last paragraph; let me know if it needs more work. As for the music issue, I just added a reference for "Holiday in Cambodia", which calls it "possibly the most successful single of the American hardcore scene". -- LGagnon 22:00, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * For "California Über Alles", we could mention the cover by Disposable Heroes Of Hiphoprisy, one of the few covers of a hardcore punk song by a hip-hop group. Also covered by John Linnell of They Might Be Giants, another case of being covered by someone from far afield musically. On both of these, we might be able to come up with something from radio stations that publish their playlists to show that both songs still get airplay 25 years after the fact. Here are two web searches that turned up examples for Seattle stations recently playing "California Über Alles"&mdash;KNDD (commercial), KEXP, an NPR affiliate&mdash; and "Holiday In Cambodia"&mdash;KNDD, KEXP. I imagine some searching on the likely stations would turn up a lot along similar lines. - Jmabel | Talk 07:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Holiday in Cambodia is taken care of for now; as for CUA, I've added the covers to the article. I'm not sure how we'd go about citing radio station playlists, though. -- LGagnon 22:50, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment, notes and references should be merged into one notes and references section and fixed so that the numbers in text have a corresponding numbered note. For multiple notes from the name source, use ref_label and note_label.--nixie 07:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Personally, I've always thought that method was rather messy. Normal publications don't mix footnotes with citations. -- LGagnon 18:23, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm with LGagnon on this. - Jmabel | Talk 07:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Object right now, but I think it's fixable during the FAC period.
 * Featured Music Project criteria
 * Lead - 3 (lead could use another paragraph, or even just a couple sentences, I suggest including something that indicates one or more of the ways he meets WP:MUSIC, even if it's just "recorded several albums" or "toured widely")
 * Comprehensiveness - 3 (while musical style may be more appropriate in detail at Dead Kennedys, this article only describes his lyrics and says "punk rock", AFAICT -- just a paragraph or two under "Music" would help)
 * Sales - 2, 3 (mentions only UK charting of "Too Drunk to Fuck", which may be his only charting hit (I don't know), but some measure of recording sales or concert sales or something ought to be added -- recording sales could be worked into the discography)
 * Pictures - 1, 2 ( need fair use rationales, more free pics would be nice, but probably impossible or difficult to find)
 * Audio - 1, 2, 3, 4 (none at all)
 * References - 4 (print and scholarly references would be very good)
 * Discography - 3 (apparently only includes solo work? Consider making a Jello Biafra discography subpage -- Dead Kennedys studio albums seem more relevant here than a guest appearance on an Offspring album)
 * Format/Style - looks very good (consider changing "music" to "Lyrical and musical style"?)
 * Tuf-Kat 15:58, 25 January 2006 (UTC)


 * On notability: Contains at least one member who was once a part of or later joined a band that is otherwise extremely notable. The intro mentions the Dead Kennedys.
 * Oh, forgot about that one. Still, for someone known primarily as a musician, I'd expect something more on his musical career in the lead.  It's supposed to be a summary of the article, which is mostly about music.
 * For comprehensiveness, I'm not sure exactly what you'd like added. Could you elaborate on that?
 * There's a lot of description of Biafra's lyrics, but the only clue as to what the actual instrumentation (of the Dead Kennedys) sounds like is "punk rock".
 * I'm not sure of where to get the info for sales; hardcore didn't exactly make the Billboard 100 that often (Black Flag's Damaged is considered one of the most successful hardcore albums, and it peaked at #100). Underground music's popularity isn't really measured the same way as the RIAA stuff.
 * I still think some sort of documentation of popularity is important. The only mention of a charting single doesn't put that fact in historical context by mentioning that it was unusual, or how unusual it was.  The article needs something by which to gauge relative popularity -- if not sales and charts, how about touring locations/audiences?  Did the Dead Kennedys play at local nightclubs, regional theaters and festivals, or arenas and Superbowls?
 * I'd be fine with ditching the 2nd photo, but the 1st one stays, as it was taken by a Wikipedia member. It's worth noting that pictures are not required for a featured article.
 * I didn't say anything about ditching any photos, just that the two fair use ones need rationales on the image pages.
 * There are audio links at the bottom of the article to free, legal copies of full spoken word speeches. Check the External links section. As for music, would links to mp3s at Alternative Tentacles's website work?
 * It helps, but there ought to be some uploaded to Wikipedia.
 * There's a Rolling Stone reference. As for scholarly, there's none at the moment, but I could break out my old History of Rock & Roll college text book and add something from there.
 * I've also got at least one book that covers the Dead Kennedys in general, and probably Biafra in particular.
 * I personally don't think we need a sub-article for his discography (it's big, but not that big). There are links to the other albums he did with his bands.
 * Looks nice, though I think the Dead Kennedy studio albums ought to be included here as well.
 * As for the Music section, it does contain more than just his style. -- LGagnon 18:40, 25 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Fair enough. Tuf-Kat


 * The lead was expanded a bit more; by your criteria, it should work now.
 * Biafra himself rarely plays an instrument. The article does mention his composition method, which seems to be the most important detail of his own instrumental style (his colaborators tend to add their own style into his compositions).
 * The DKs were quite apposed to arenas (with the exception of the Bay Area Music Awards incident, which I've left to the DK article). As for nightclubs, the only one I can think of a the moment is the Whiskey A Go Go. I'm pretty sure they played the CBGB too. For festivals, Rock Against Reagan was probably their biggest appearance (info on that here). I'm not exactly sure where or how to add this info in though; I'm open to suggestions.
 * I would willingly add a few audio samples from my collection (I can give a fair number of them), though I'll need some info on how to do so within Wikipedia's fair use rules. -- LGagnon 05:34, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * How about adding something to the "Early years and the Dead Kennedys" section, similar to: The Dead Kennedys toured widely in California in the early 1970s, eventually moving on to major club across the country, including Whiskey A Go Go and CBGB's in New York, as well as performing at the Rock Against Reagan festival (possibly split into two sentences). Tuf-Kat 05:45, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * DKs at least once played the Showbox in Seattle, definitely the premier punk venue here at that time, now somewhat glitzed up and probably wouldn't book a band with their potential for trouble. But to a large extent, they were pioneers of the DIY booking route, with amateur and semi-pro organizers placing ads on phone poles and taking 2-column-inch ads in the local weekly papers, and with the band generally playing to impressively large crowds in rented halls. - Jmabel | Talk 07:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll try to add that in somewhere. -- LGagnon 06:05, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. -- LGagnon 06:20, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * It might be worth mentioning whether or not Biafra has ever performed outside of the US. Was his Top of the Pops appearance a total aberration in that regard? Tuf-Kat 06:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * The DKs never made it onto TofP; they didn't rank high enough on the singles chart to appear. -- LGagnon 16:04, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Oh, oops, misread that. It would still be valuable to note international success, if there was any. Tuf-Kat 16:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 *  Conditional support now, on the assumption that some sound samples are uploaded. See Image:Neutral Milk Hotel - 2 Head.ogg for an example of a fair use clip with rationale. Tuf-Kat 06:52, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I'll work on those tomorrow, assuming I'm not too busy; otherwise they'll be in within the next few days.
 * By the way, thanks for the Garofalo source; I was looking through the same book (though my edition is newer) for something to add. However, you didn't add any page numbers for that or the other source (which should come with any book reference). Could you please add those in? -- LGagnon 06:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Done. Tuf-Kat 07:23, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I've added samples for the DKs and Lard. I'll try to get something in for the Jelvins and a spoken word clip soon. -- LGagnon 16:51, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Looks good. I have one last suggestion on the clips -- more informative captions would be very helpful (e.g. "Song" from Album is an example of Biafra's socially conscious lyricism, or "Song" from Album shows a more emotional side to Biafra's work). Tuf-Kat 16:56, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I think all of them count as socially conscious lyricism; maybe we could be more specific on them (for instance, "Yuppie Cadillac" represents Biafra's belief in banning SUVs). -- LGagnon 17:26, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * By the way, would it be ok for me to add a link to the full mp3 of "Yuppie Cadillac" at Alternative Tentacles' website? -- LGagnon 05:07, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I don't see any reason not to. Just make it clear that it's an external link. Tuf-Kat 05:22, 29 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Oppose. Prose issues (ex. "disbandment") and referencing (ex. "Biafra's spoken word work has been less influential to other artists than his music. However, Biafra's spoken word is often mentioned by Sean Kennedy as being a major influence on his work." and others mentioned above) .  I'd recommend asking someone who hasn't seen the article to go through it and give it a copyedit.  Jkelly 17:32, 26 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Disbandment is a legit word. As for the Sean Kennedy part, he mentions that in several episodes of his show. It kind of counts as common knowledge (at least for fans of SK). -- LGagnon 17:53, 26 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I have added a reference for Sean Kennedy now (and from his own show). Also, all previous requests for references have been taken care of. -- LGagnon 00:58, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * In response to your request for expanding on prose concerns below, I suggest that using only words that exist doesn't by itself make for "brilliant prose", a WP:FA requirement. That said, I strongly disagree with User:Anlace that the style is "inarticulate".  I suggest that it simply could use some polishing.  Leaving aside whether the word "disbandment" is inherently awkward, I'll give another example:

"A spoken word tour of Canada was cancelled because of this, and recordings for a spoken word album that Biafra had planned to record during it were not made."


 * The above is certainly not "inarticulate". But it isn't "brilliant"ly easy to parse.  I'd suggest a rewrite:

"The attack derailed Biafra's plans for both a Canadian spoken-word tour and accompanying album."


 * Going through the article changing almost every instance of passive voice would improve the prose. I hope that this provides a better idea of what needs polishing.  Jkelly 21:42, 1 February 2006 (UTC)


 * I've changed that one sentence. However, I don't know how to be sure what you count as passive and what you don't. You could list some sentences that need work (there probably isn't too many), or you could change them yourself. Either way, it helps more than claiming opposition to something you won't explain completely. -- LGagnon 01:18, 2 February 2006 (UTC)


 * Passive voice. Jkelly 04:43, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
 * I've changed things around. -- LGagnon 01:43, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

3 comments:
 * 1) I'd like to see us sort out whether it was skinheads, "crusties" or whoever who beat him up in the incident outside Gilman Street. I suspect that if someone tracks down MRR from that month or two there will be a story on this, and there might be other solid sources to be found. I wouldn't stop it from becoming a featured article over that, but I had retreated to a vaguer wording precisely because there was disagreement on this and no source forthcoming.
 * 2) Surely by now there is at least one good book on either the Dead Kennedys as such or the Bay Area hardcore scene, but we don't cite anything of the sort. http://www.richardmccaffrey.com/ says McCaffrey co-authored a 1979 book titled X-capees about the Bay Area Punk scene. Anyone seen it? Anything to it? Some great early DKs photos&mdash;, , &mdash;so the book probably covers them (but it would be so early that it would be more for first impressions than any thing else.
 * 3) Which reminds me: has anyone tried digging up contemporary gig reviews? One possibly citable quote, though maybe for Dead Kennedys or an article on the scene in general rather than this article: "The city's [San Francisco's] younger bands adopt extravagantly repellent names (Dead Kennedys, Woundz, Toiling Midgets) and write extravagantly provocative lyrics." Robert Palmer, "The Pop Life; Rebellion Rules Rock In Young San Francisco" . New York Times, Aug 25, 1982. p. C19 I rather like that "extravagantly repellent names". -- Jmabel | Talk 07:35, 27 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Jello's AMG entry says that it was skinheads; the RS article I cited just calls them slamdancers. I mentioned in the article that Creton was slamdancing. If we have to change it to add any specific group for them, "skinheads" will win out for now as we have one source that claims that.
 * American Hardcore was cited by Tuf-Kat, which seems like a pretty good book to me (I read a little bit of it at Newbury Comics once, but didn't bother to buy it). There's probably more in that book that we could use, though we don't really need more from it at the moment. More photos of Biafra would be nice too, though it might be hard to get some that we can use under fair use.
 * I know the Jelvins played at The Middle East Downstairs in Boston on October 21; the Boston Phoenix has an article on that (this article preceded it as an announcement of the event). -- LGagnon 22:26, 27 January 2006 (UTC)
 * There is a rather long chapter on Biafra in that book (actually on the DKs, but talking about him specifically a lot). If there's any specific suggestions of something to add, I can look it up, but I glanced through the book when originally commenting on it, and didn't see anything of obvious importance. Tuf-Kat 06:48, 28 January 2006 (UTC)


 * oppose rambles quite too much and the flow of events is unnecessarily out of order(eg late 70s events are before early 70s).....many awkward phrases(eg "bands disbandment")...too much colloquialism (eg "came up with") ...sounds like author is trying to write like his subject would write, not very articulate.....still my hat is off to this author for writing a good article about a topic no one will remember in 30 years.Anlace 03:40, 1 February 2006 (UTC)
 * Where exactly are the events out of order? Also, neither you nor the previous objector have explained why "disbandment" is akward. And if there are any lines other than "cam up with" (which I just changed) that need to be changed, please state them instead of claiming they exist in an ambiguous way. Problems can not be fixed if you do not state what they are.
 * And while I appreciate the congratulation, there isn't really a need to insult Biafra in the process. -- LGagnon 04:35, 1 February 2006 (UTC)