Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Jerry Fodor/archive1

Jerry Fodor
This article has been listed as a good article for several months, has had a peer review which resulted in some major restructuring of format and a general overall improvement in readability, and it is extremely well-documented and stable. I literally do not think it is possible to do much better given the lack of offical and unoffical biographies and the nature of the material.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 09:54, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Object, there is no fair use rationale on the image - you may as well upload a clearer fair use image too. The lead is not a good summary of the article. The biographcial info is a bit scarse, is he married etc.? There are some concepts that should be linked for clarity like triadic relation. There is some redundancy in the text and too many bracketed statements, and more commas than I want to count - a copyedit by someone who hasn't worked on the text would be a good idea to improve flow.--Peta 10:23, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Fair use again?? Oh boy!!!Here's the fair use rationale right here:

It is believed that the use of some such photographs to illustrate:

* the person, product, event, or subject in question * in the absence of a free alternative, * on the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation,


 * qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law.


 * Other use of this image, on Wikipedia or elsewhere, may be copyright infringement. See Wikipedia:Fair use and Wikipedia:Publicity photos.


 * Additionally, the copyright holder may have granted permission for use in works such as Wikipedia. However, if they have, this permission likely does not fall under a free license. As well, commercial third-party reusers of this image should consider whether their use is in violation of the subject's publicity rights, if the photograph is of a person.'''


 * I don't see any brackets actually. If you're talking about parentheses, I'll see if some can be removed without altering the content. Other than that, this article has been praised by almost every philosopher I know of.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:44, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * I suggest you familiarise yourself with [this].--Peta 10:50, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Alright, I'm suprised no-one has brought up that point in all the time I've been editing Wikipedia. Anyway, just to keep folks intersted informed, I've added my rationale on the photo page. I cannot possibly get a better quality photo. It's difficult to get any photos of current philosophers. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 11:39, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * The image is subject to deletion -- you're using a template on it that indicates that the image is from a press kit, when it is actually web content from a university. Use Non-free fair use in if you really think that this image somehow meets Fair use criteria.  I don't understand why we would make such a claim -- it is an image used to identify Mr. Fodor for a website, and we are using it to identify Mr. Fodor on our website -- ther's no transformative use here whatsoever.  Further, the subject is still alive; why can't we go photograph him?  Jkelly 20:27, 26 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Well, the answer to the last question is quite simple if you're referring specifically to me: I LIVE IN ITALY!! I shall delete the photo if that's what you all really want. I have found, through exprerence however, that this sort of thing obviously detracts unconsciously from the appeal of the articles on Wikipedia. Philosophy is not a very image-conducive sort of topic. But without any images at all?? --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 06:47, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Category:Wikipedians in New Jersey. Jkelly 22:45, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * So you propose someone should click on a random user from New Jersey and ask him to track this person down and photograph him? --Shardsofmetal [ Talk 04:07, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Object—2a.
 * Which is better: "1959-1986" or "1959–86"?
 * Is this a good paragraph: "He has two grown children and currently lives in New York City with his wife and his cat."
 * There's a very long quote in the biography section; is it possible to ration the text, perhaps by the deft use of ellision dots?
 * Can this: "Fodor presented one of the fundamental conceptual bases of his thought: the idea that ..." be reduced to: "Fodor introduced one of his fundamental concepts—that ..."

The flab needs to be trimmed throughout. Then I'll support. Tony 02:48, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Of course. These sorts of stylstic things should not be much of a problem. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 06:52, 27 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support (dunno if this is too late): the stylistic issues seem to me to be minor, and essentially a matter of taste. The article's content is impressively clear, accurate and in-depth. There aren't enough philosophy articles of this quality on WP, and I think the exceptional nature of this one should be recognised. Cheers, --Sam Clark 12:29, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Support A clear and well-researched article. Sam, I also find the stylistic objections above rather petty. Some minor work on citations is needed. I would also like to see his influence on Zenon Pylyshyn, Murat Aydede and Steven Pinker explained. Banno 22:33, 29 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Hmmm...well, the citations are fairly easy to find.

the realation with Murat Aydede and Zenon Pylyshn can probably be explained in a few brief sentences, IMO. But the Pinker would require a whole new section!! Damnit. Excellent point too. But since this is not really an objection....Also, I take everyone's input very seriously. The troublesome photo is gone, the intro is now much closer to being a summary of the rest which can "stand alone" as an artcile, I've removed almost all of the parens, brackets and so on. These objections are supposed to be struck out if they have been addressed. The first commentator seems not to be following the matter though. (he may have legit reasons, of course). The complaint about "flab" is something I have also been working on without assistance. Well, I'll stop blabbering and try to deal with some of this stuff as best as I can.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 08:16, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Perhaps it would be better to explain the link in the Pinker article? Either would I think be fine. Banno 08:21, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment The German Wikipedia is being used as a source. Punctured Bicycle 09:54, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Yeah, for one sentence about the fact that his wife's name is Jean Fodor!! Take a look at it, for heaven's sake. The fact that he has a wife is confirmed in his own writings. I will try to find another source to "verify" that his wife really is the linguist Jean Fodor!!! Oh, for pete's sake!!!--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 10:29, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * ... Punctured Bicycle 11:15, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Object. Quality of writing is poor (2a). A thorough copyedit is required per WP:WEASEL, WP:PEACOCK and WP:WTA. Examples include:
 * Fodor argues that mental states, such as beliefs and desires, are relations between individuals and mental representations, that these representations can only be correctly explained in terms of a language of thought in the mind, and that this language of thought itself is an actually existing thing that is codified in the brain and not just a useful explanatory tool or hypothesis. Fodor adheres to a species of functionalism and maintains that thinking and other mental processes consist primarily, but not exclusively, of computations operating on the syntactic structure of the representations that constitute the language of thought. (whole paragraph has wording problems)
 * Fodor also maintains that significant parts of the mind, such as perceptual and linguistic processes, are structured in terms of modules, or "organs", which are defined by their causal and functional roles in the overall structure.
 * Fodor suggests that the informationally closed and independent character of these modules permits the possibility of the causal relations with external objects that, in turn, makes it possible for mental states to have contents (meaning and reference) that are about things in the world, while the central processing part takes care of the holistic inferential relations between the various contents and inputs and outputs which is characteristic of the traditional functionalist view.
 * Although Fodor originally rejected the idea that mental states must have, what are now called, "broad contents" in the sense described above involving causal relations, he has in recent years devoted much of his writing and study to the philosophy of language precisely because of this problem of the externally-influenced meaning of mental contents.
 * His most significant contributions in this area include the so-called asymmetric causal theory of reference and his many arguments against semantic holism (both discussed below).
 * Almost every sentence needs fixing. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 17:51, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * Object 2a, prose. Sandy 18:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * This article has been sitting out there almost untouched for nearly 6 months. I originally wrote most of it back in February or March. You can check the history. In that time, no-one has apparently seen the need for a thorough copyedit of every sentence. I out it through peer-review and the result was the sort of nonsense that you can see for yourself. I, of course, am incapable of writing by your lights, so I shall not dare to touch the article anymore. If you can fix it yourself, please go ahead and do so!! The point here is to make actionable objections, if I understood the policy correctly. You have, by defintion, disqualified me being capable of acting on your objections. Let me make this extremely clear though: No one else who knows anything about philosophy is going to touch this article. They have all praised me on it, including Professor Dean Buckner. Umm....there are some profoundly differing opinions here, it seems to me. In any case, I suggest that you now go and take a look at the article I have just nominated for FA Hilary Putnam and offer your delicate and refined thoughts on that piece. --Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 18:48, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
 * You understood us incorrectly. We haven't disqualified you from copyediting. Instead we have provided some excerpts that need fixing. This is an actionable concern and we want you to take action on it. If you can't, ask an experienced editor to do it. There are many of them. We haven't questioned the content, we are only questioning the quality, that anyone, even someone completely unaware of the topic can do. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 18:57, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * Then why don't you help me out with it?? For example, I have just made a few changes to the intro.

Is this better or worse or what, from your perspective? Stay with me here please. I've never been criticed in this way and I do not feel well at the moment.--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 19:02, 30 July 2006 (UTC)


 * You are moving the the right direction. Your imrpovements are quite satisfactory, and you need to apply them to the whole article. Since you ask, I have already got an article featured through similar harrowing process, and in the end it was worth it. The article is a beauty now. I am currently taking another article through Peer Review, another through Featured Article Review, almost single handedly doing the improvements. You can see the history for the improvements I have made to those articles. Do you still feel that I don't contribute, and only pass by and curse. You asked about any editor who will help with the article. Why don't you go and ask at WikiProject Philosophy. I am sure someone will help. Best of luck. — Ambuj Saxena (talk) 13:54, 31 July 2006 (UTC)


 * No, no,no... I was not referring to YOU at all in that comment in the first place. Also, I was making two separate points, neither of which was intended to refer to you. Anyway, I appreciate your response. As to asking for help, etc,...I suspect the problem is that you have not had to deal with philosophy articles and the philosophy "project" on here. There is no such thing. Or, to the extent that there is, it is total chaos, illiteracy, madness. You just have to take my word for this. This is my only other Featured Article. The total number of philosophy FAs is about 6 or 7. I AM the philosophy of mind section and it is not even my main area of expertise!! Look at the history of the "philosophy of mind" article. I took it over, discarded everything that was there and merged it with the article mind-body problem. The peer review was completely useless. The FA was somewhat helpful in incerasing the number of refernces. Other than that, I had to do it all myself. Anyway...--Francesco Franco aka Lacatosias 14:37, 31 July 2006 (UTC)