Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/John de Gray/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ucucha 16:09, 28 March 2012.

John de Gray

 * Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 13:09, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because... this is an article about a fascinating bishop who was one of King John of England's main advisors and was called an "evil councillor" at one point in his career. Modern historians are more forgiving. John's attempt to secure the archbishopric of Canterbury for de Gray led to the long conflict between John and the papacy, which resulted in many of the English bishops in voluntary exile and church services suspended in England for years. De Gray also served John in Ireland, as governor there. This is what the article looked like when I started editing it back in 2007, but the major expansion occured this year starting in January. It's had a couple of copyedits by Malleus, a thorough GA review as well as a peer review, and I believe it's as ready as I can make it. This WILL be a wikicup nomination for me. I present to you... John de Gray - one of John's "Evil Councillors", Bishop of Norwich, Governor of Ireland, and one of the major causes of the Interdict on England from 1208 to 1213. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:09, 19 March 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This is a WikiCup nomination. The following nominators are WikiCup participants: Ealdgyth. To the nominator: if you do not intend to submit this article at the WikiCup, feel free to remove this notice. UcuchaBot (talk) 00:01, 20 March 2012 (UTC)

Sources and images but no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Is the Lyon book "Constitution" or "Constitutional" history?
 * Does Otway-Ruthven use "Mediaeval" or "Medieval"?
 * No citations to Poole
 * Single image is unproblematic. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:20, 22 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Constitutional - fixed. Medieval - fixed. Removed Poole. All done! Ealdgyth - Talk 14:26, 22 March 2012 (UTC)


 * tentative support Comments  am finding less to fiddle with prose-wise than previous ones, which is a good sign! Queries to come....Casliber (talk · contribs) 21:55, 23 March 2012 (UTC)


 * I'd link justiciar as it's not a common word, consider wiktionary if nothing on WP suits


 * All in all, has come together really well. I'm not familiar with the person so can't really comment on comprehensiveness. Also have not spotchecked sources. Happy with prose. This support is pending other folks' satisfaction with the article :) Casliber (talk · contribs) 22:06, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Should I take my bow now, or wait for the dénouement? Malleus Fatuorum 22:22, 23 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I guess we wait till the fat lady singeth. Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:17, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I hope neither one of you is implying that *I* am the fat lady? Ealdgyth - Talk 01:51, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Certainly not, you're the foxy lady. Malleus Fatuorum 01:54, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
 * No no no, I meant to add in the adjective "proverbial" but was rushed/distracted/substitute some other pithy explanation....Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:33, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Support: Another well-researched and well-written article. Seems accessible for the general reader but remains comprehensive. Two minor points, which do not affect my support. --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "The elder de Gray was instrumental in securing the selection of his nephew as Lord Chancellor,[2] as the elder de Gray was a surety for the younger de Gray's payment of a fine of 5000 marks to secure the chancellorship.": In this case, would it be better to say "John" and "William" rather than "older" and "younger", as the current wording is slightly cumbersome? Also, it is possible for an uncle to be younger than a nephew!
 * Yes, it is possible for an uncle to be younger than his nephew, and not that uncommon. Consider for instance the hypothetical case where your sister had a baby when she was 16, but you weren't born until she was 17. Malleus Fatuorum 14:24, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Malleus fixed that, but I have to say given that John helped Walter secure his first major appointment, it's almost assured that Walter was the younger here.. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * "After Hubert Walter's death in July 1205, the selection of a successor was hindered by doubts about what the proper procedure should be.": This implies that something was different about the circumstances; why had these events never happened before? (I hope I'm making sense...) --Sarastro1 (talk) 13:17, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * I've clarified that this was a common event - elections to Canterbury were often contentious and there was no hard-and-fast procedure to follow. Thank you for your review! Ealdgyth - Talk 15:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)

Support with nitpicks. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:37, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * The elder de Gray was instrumental in securing...as the elder de Gray was...to secure" - can we avoid that repetition?
 * Does "postulated" have a different meaning than usual in this context?
 * "which presented Innocent with two candidates for the office" - who was the other?
 * "de Braose" or just "Braose"? And how did the situation with him resolve?
 * What are "secular clergy"?
 * "De Gray remained close to John for the rest of the bishop's life" - hasn't he just died? Do you mean "most" of his life?
 * Should either be in both the Durham and Canterbury categories, or neither, as was bishop-elect of both. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:37, 25 March 2012 (UTC)
 * Changed the second "secure" to "acquire". I've added a quick explanation about postulated (although it's somewhat of a simplification). The other one was Reginald, who's mentioned in the previous paragraph. de Braose lost his lands, was driven into exile, and his wife and eldest son were starved to death on John's orders - but de Gray had nothing to do with any of this, which is why I've not included this in the article. Secular clergy are clergy that are NOT monks or nuns or canons - I've linked. Fixed that last one. Thank you for your review and for all the hard work you do at FAC! Ealdgyth - Talk 15:22, 25 March 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.