Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive3


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 22:39, 4 October 2012.

Juwan Howard

 * Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because after a very lengthy WP:PR this summer, I think the article is among the finest and most complete on Wikipedia. It is exemplary of what a basketball biography should be like, IMO.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:56, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments by Malleus Fatuorum This still needs some work:

All the above from the only section I've looked at so far, Freshman year. Malleus Fatuorum 14:18, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "Howard matriculated to the University of Michigan, where he was not only united with his fellow freshman that would soon be known as the Fab Five ..." simply doesn't make sense.
 * I don't understand the complaint. It says he was linked to 6 notable people and not just the 4 he is most famous for being linked to. Nonetheless, I have split it into two sentences.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:51, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The problem is with "where he was reunited with his fellow freshman" (singular), who could hardly have become known as the Fab Five. Malleus Fatuorum 16:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Got it.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:41, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "... came off the bench in others for the highly-rated Wolverines". There ought not to be a hyphen in "highly rated".
 * According to Hyphen, you have a point. Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "However, Duke scored in its final 12 possessions of the championship game ...", "When the 24–8 Wolverines reached the Final Four, they found themselves matched against a 29–4 Bob Huggins-coached Cincinnati Bearcats team". This plural/singular confusion is a recurring problem with all team sport articles.
 * It is my belief that Michigan and Duke are singular subjects, while The Blue Devils and The Wolverines are collective plural subjects. Both forms can be used to provide variety, AFAIK.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:55, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Not as far as I'm concerned they can't, as they're both the names of teams. Malleus Fatuorum 16:49, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Is there WP:MOS guidance on this issue?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:54, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Are you saying they should be singular or plural?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:58, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm saying they could legitimately be either singular or plural, but whichever you decide on needs to be consistent. Malleus Fatuorum 21:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)
 * That sounds like you are confused. Either could be singular or plural? Again, I ask if there is any MOS policy in support of this philosophy that they must be consistent. I have been reading sports articles for years. It is always the team is a singular subject and the mascot name is plural subject. I.e., New York was in first, but the Yankese were in first. I have never seen either New York were in first or the Yankees was in first. Never that I recall and I supposedly taught myself to read reading box scores.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'm not the one that's confused, that would be you. I suggest that you try and get your act together here, before I'm tempted to oppose this article on the basis of its poor prose. Malleus Fatuorum 03:34, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * When it comes to serious grammar debates, I am usually the one who is confused. Thus, you may be correct. However, As stated in my 03:29, 9 September 2012 Yankees example, I am not able to convince myself to follow your counterintuitive advice given my recollection of grammatical usage. Could you possibly cite some sort of MOS guide on this issue or at least wait until a third party confirms this point. Of course, remain free to judge the article based on the other prose as you wish, but this particular point remains at odds with my grammatical experience.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:01, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, while I was initially inclined to agree with Malleus (teams are usually treated as singular in AmEng and plural in BrEng, per MOS:PLURALS), upon reviewing that guideline I find that an odd idiosyncrasy of AmEng applies here: "In North American English, [teams] (and the United States, for historical reasons) are almost invariably treated as singular; the major exception is when sports teams are referred to by nicknames that are plural nouns, when plural verbs are commonly used to match." Nikkimaria (talk) 14:45, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * But the Wolverines isn't a nickname, it's a shortened version of "Michigan Wolverines"; a nickname would be calling Stoke City F.C The Potters, for instance. Malleus Fatuorum 21:12, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In this context, Wolverines is the nickname for the Michigan football team, the New York baseball team is nicknamed the Yankees, the Boston basketball team is nicknamed the Celtics, etc. I don't think association football has nicknames in this context.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 22:12, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes it does: Crewe Alexandra F.C. is commonly called "Crewe Alex", or simply "The Alex". But the point is that "Wolverines" isn't a nickname for the Michigan Wolverines, any more than "Tony" is a nickname for "TonyTheTiger". Malleus Fatuorum 22:33, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
 * So far, you seem to be in the minority in this opinion. Maybe you could ask since he is involved in this evaluation.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:09, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I've never been concerned about being in a minority, especially when I know I'm right. Ask Giants2008 yourself; I don't need his opinion. Malleus Fatuorum 04:09, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Comments –
 * Don't think "Championship" should be capitalized at the end of the first paragraph.
 * I think you are right.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:12, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Junior year: No need to link DePaul here, since it was linked a couple of sections ago.
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Same for Illinois Fighting Illini.
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:15, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * And Chicago Sun-Times, twice.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:18, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * "and had begun considering attending UNLV as well." The consecutive -ing words are a little awkward, and I don't think "attending" is needed in the first place. I know we want to avoid confusing readers, but I think they will be able to understand this without the extra word.
 * You are right.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:21, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Senior year: Typo in "and Michigan coach Fischer to have influenced King's decision to enroll there." Coach's name is off.
 * Good catch.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:24, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Freshman year: "Howard earned a reputation for his quick feet, ability to grasp fundamentals, excellent moves in the low post, but also...". I think "the" needs to be put before "excellent".
 * My intent was to draw parallel structure of of his (his feet, his ability, his excellent moves and omit the repetition. his the excellent moves is off in this regard.)--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:26, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, I used the wrong word as a recommendation. Adding "and" before "excellent" will give you the parallel structure you want, more so than what's there now. My fault for the confusion. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:23, 22 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Junior year: Comma after 21–6 should be removed, I believe.
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * For the scouting report section, is there anything that can be added about his role with the Miami Heat? That is the organization he won the title with, and it would be nice to know what he did, even if he primarily came off the bench. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:31, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I'll try to find some stuff.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I found a bit.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:44, 12 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that in the newly added part, "general manner" should be "general manager". Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:21, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Late Washington era: Comma in "The accuser, was absent during the proceeding..." should be taken out.
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:08, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * 2001–2004: Capitalize "All-star" by Michael Finley's name.
 * Good catch.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:11, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Houston era: "while center Yao Ming's was recovered from his fractured right leg." I'm thinking this was meant to be "while center Yao Ming recovered from his fractured right leg."
 * S/B recovering.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:16, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In that case, Yao's name shouldn't be plural. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:24, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
 * 2007–present: 2011 NBA Finals stats could use a reference or two.
 * done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 04:25, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Again, the second word of "NBA Championship" is capitalized when it shouldn't be.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:24, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Personal: No need to capitalize Spring here.
 * Thanks.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:27, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Statistics: Typo in last word of "The following are Howard's collegiate statisitics:".
 * Good eye.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:30, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * In NBA statistics, it should say "has ranked" since he is still an active player and has not retired yet. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:38, 16 September 2012 (UTC)
 * I went with is rather than has.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 03:40, 16 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Just scanning quickly: "When he first became a free agent in 1996, Howard was described as versatile enough to play all three front-line positions (small forward, power forward and center), and Michael Jordan loved his "game, work ethic and character"." The two ideas don't seem to fit together well. Tony   (talk)  13:32, 21 September 2012 (UTC)
 * Why not? The first point means he has a versatile game. Then Jordan says he like his game as well as his character.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 23:17, 21 September 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.