Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Juwan Howard/archive4


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:Ian Rose 09:48, 1 February 2013‎.

Juwan Howard

 * Nominator(s): TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I think the article is close to FA level. The only outstanding issue from FAC3 is one in which insisted that sports team mascots are singular subjects, while common usage and wikipedia policy (as pointed out by ) dictate otherwise.TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:17, 29 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment – I see that this hasn't received much attention so far, so I've hopped into action and copy-edited the lead and early part of the article. Most of this was just eliminating some prose redundancies and making paragraph sizes more moderate. At a glance, it looks like refs 239 and 241 are new and need further formatting (just a publisher for 241, and full info for 239). I'll try to copy-edit the rest as time permits. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 03:49, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the copyedit, but I think you are introducing a lot of WP:OVERLINKING.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 19:04, 5 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The links I added were to items linked in the lead, but not the body. It's okay to link an item upon its first usage in the body, even if there's a link in the lead. It's repeat links in the body or lead that get commented on at FAC. If it concerns you, I'll refrain from touching the links when I get around to the remaining sections; with luck, I'll be able to at least start on the NBA career section tonight. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:49, 6 January 2013 (UTC)
 * My pass through the article is now finished. I'll wait to see what other reviewers have to say before declaring a position, but I could certainly see myself supporting it. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:28, 7 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comments from Bagumba
 * General
 * 1) IMO, an FA should leverage books for well rounded perspectives.  Some candidates are biographies (e.g. ISBN 0766010651 ISBN 0791045757) or on Fab Five (ISBN 0446517348).  I wont oppose without them, but I wouldn't pass it either.
 * 2) I am not sure how relevant those sources are.
 * Here in his hometown of Chicago, the Chicago Public Library does not seem to carry the Sandra Stotksy and Ron Sirak book (ISBN 0791045757)
 * The Jeff Savage book (ISBN 0766010651) is listed in "Juvenile Literature". Not sure how important kids lit is to WP as a source.
 * If those are his only bios, we might not really be missing much.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The Fab Five book may have a few things, but how much more extensive a section do we want on his college years.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:17, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Some libraries have inter-library loans. Other editors might have access to the book and be willing to step in. The fact that it is a juvenile book only means that it is written with simpler English, not that it is not reliable.  I'd be surprised if the Fab Five book didnt go over their early lives—a section that is lacking in this article.—Bagumba (talk) 21:33, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Early lives lacking??!! This article has more pre-college content than almost any NBA WP:FA has for all pre-professional life. Look at Michael Jordan, Magic Johnson, Bill Russell. Howard 8285 characters of early life and high school, 7524 characters of college. Jordan 2238 el/hs/college combined. Magic 857 el/hs and 1476 college. Russell 2741 el/hs and 4748 college. What exactly do you think is missing here. This article would be by far the most extensive early life exposition of an NBA FA with nearly 16000 characters. Is that what you really think needs to be expanded?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:46, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * By "early life", I meant before high school. You probably haven't gotten to my "Early life and high school" comments below.  Honestly, I think a lot of NBA FA articles could stand to use an FAR if someone wanted to invest the time.—Bagumba (talk) 21:57, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * The Fab Five book is partially available online. It has more info on his parents, living in project, influence of grandma on his education, influence of Donnie Kirksey.—Bagumba (talk) 23:11, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * O.K. I'll check it out, but keep in mind Howard has 8285 characters of pre-college stuff. Jordan 2238 pre-NBA, Magic 857 pre-college, Russell, 2741 pre-college, and I just found Tim Duncan 2525 pre-college and 5777 college and Yao Ming 1482 pre-NBA draft and 1573 NBA draft. I don't think it is incumbent upon me to add much.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:16, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I think I have made the proper changes based on the Albom book.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:01, 17 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) WP:CITEHOW says website names should be listed in citations, not the publishers (e.g. basketball-reference.com instead of Sports Reference LLC)
 * I did a search and replace all for the 47 instances of Sports Reference LLC. Most other sources seem to be periodicals.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:31, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Inconsistent date format: This article is about an American subject, the body lists dates in MDY format, but the citations change to use DMY.
 * I was not aware that the text and the refs had to use the same format. I just added Use mdy dates. I am not sure what that is suppose to do however.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Lead
 * 1) Qualify that he was AS and All-NBA once each
 * Done.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:21, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Mention why Fab Five is notable when introducing them in 1st paragraph
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:26, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Members of Fab Five can be moved to later in the lead (if they even need to be mentioned at all)
 * Fixed.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:26, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) 1st paragraph should be limited to what he's most famous for. Move high school career to later in lead.
 * Rearranged.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:29, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "combined 304 of a possible 350 games" thses specific stats too detailed for lead. Just call him a starter, or that he evenually became a starter his frehman year, with rest of details left for the body.
 * Although his individual stats are a bit too specific for the LEAD, this is a summary stat describing how dominant the FAB FIVE were. No group of freshmen has come in and started almost all of a team's games like that before.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:31, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Provide indication of what the University of Michigan basketball scandal entailed.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 21:34, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "he became the first player to graduate on time with his class after leaving college early to play in the NBA": seems out of place in the lead; not sure it help us understand the progression of his career any better here.
 * That seems to be a very major distinction. What is wrong with including that in the LEAD. Almost everything else is about basketball accomplishments.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:19, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "While he continued to be a productive starter, he never again performed at an All-Star level." Being selected for ASG might not be the same as performing as AS level.  Be less controversial for lead to say he was not selected again.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:13, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "averaged 17 points per game in three of his seasons since." Over how many seasons?  It seems like you are only counting "full" seasons.  Why choose 17 as the measuring stick.  He stopped averaging double figure at some point too.  It might be better to leave detailed stat analysis like this for the body.
 * O.K.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "He was most recently a starter during the 2005–06 NBA season": The stats section shows he started 27 games in 2009–10.
 * IIRC, starter is someone who started 50% of the games. All others are eligible for NBA Sixth Man of the Year Award.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:32, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "Howard has developed a reputation as a humanitarian for his civic commitment": Not sure if this is really a prominent part of his notability. Needs better transition if it is to stay.
 * As a rule, I try to include a summary of every section in the LEAD. I think it should stay as long as the section remains in the main body.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:48, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Early life and high school
 * 1) Details before high school are sparse. Any indication of when he was inspired to play basketball, or what influenced him to pursue education?  General comment about using books might help here.
 * I'll repeat my summary above. There are 5 WP:NBA WP:FA bios (see Category:FA-Class NBA articles). Howard has 8285 characters of pre-college stuff. Michael Jordan 2238 pre-NBA, Magic Johnson 857 pre-college, Bill Russell, 2741 pre-college, Tim Duncan 2525 pre-college and Yao Ming 1482 pre-NBA draft. I am not sure how much pre-high school stuff is expected. I will look at the book you suggested.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:54, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) "Overview" seems to be more about "Early life" with a very sparse overview of HS. Instead, split into separate "Early life" and "High school" sections.  Any needed overview can be provided in the lead.—Bagumba (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * Rearranged.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:59, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * 1) Anything on freshmen year. Seems weird when there are section on the other years.—Bagumba (talk) 21:04, 15 January 2013 (UTC)
 * He did not start getting notable press in the secondary sources until he was a sophomore. N.B.: The article includes the first search result for the Chicago Sun-Times, which came in December 1988. The earliest Chicago Tribune search result is January 1989.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 16:02, 16 January 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment I don't intend to write a whole review here, but this sentence is a problem: "As of 2012, over the course of his NBA career Howard is ranked 25th in games played, 73rd in field goals made, 75th in rebounds, 49th in turnovers, 28th in fouls and 91st in points." Many of those stats are already out of date, and it's unlikely that they'll be maintained over time. It would be one thing if Howard were in the top ten of a statistical category, but when we're talking 75th place, I wouldn't even bother mentioning it. The article does say "As of 2012", but the problem is that the reference doesn't even support those 2012 numbers anymore. Zagal e jo^^^ 05:44, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * I have removed that continuously obsolescing sentence.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:33, 16 January 2013 (UTC)
 * OK. Zagal e jo^^^ 01:32, 17 January 2013 (UTC)

Delegate comment -- Sorry Tony, but after running a month with no support and no activity for two weeks, this seems to have stalled, so I'm going to archive and suggest another try at a later date (as you've responded to all comments and none were opposed, if you'd like leave to re-nom in less than the customary two weeks then consider it granted). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:38, 1 February 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 14:40, 1 February 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.