Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kappa Kappa Psi/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 02:01, 8 August 2012.

Kappa Kappa Psi

 * Nominator(s): Sycamore (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it is FA quality and deserves to be considered as a Featured Article. The first nomination was closed with very few comments, so User:GrahamColm has issued an exemption so that this article can be re-nominated before the customary two weeks pass. Sycamore (talk) 19:42, 24 June 2012 (UTC)

Support User:Naraht Naraht (talk) 17:25, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As a fellow Greek (ATΩ), I found this article interesting as while my school has a chapter of KKPsi, I have not known a lot about them other than it is comprised of mostly band majors (and work with TBSig). Anyways, as a Greek organization, have you found any totals on how much KKPsi has raised nationally for any philanthropies or charity events (or maybe give an example of some of the biggest fundraisers KKPsi has done)? I know you mentioned something about blood drives in the article, but I cannot imagine that is it for them. I would also expand the 2011 incident where alumni was expelled from the former FAMU chapter to say why they were expelled (and also several members were made alumni due to this closing too, which wasn't noted). I would also and try and link Colony in its earliest instance in the article (under Membership pins). I would also put a photo of the badge, even if you have to claim fair use (since I know a lot of fraternity and sorority badges were put up for deletion on the Commons) unless there is something about Ritual that prevents the badge from being displayed. But other than those comments, I like the article and I would like to see it become an FA. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:24, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, if you cannot display the badge, I suggest putting a photo of a lettered shirt in that section. I know you have SVGs of what the blocked letters look like (Mega Greek font IIRC, since I had to use the same font for ATΩ shirts) so I would put it on a shirt or something. If you cannot do this, I can. If you prefer a real shirt, I suggest Flickr or if you are a KKPsi Brother, then take a photo of your own shirt and use it. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 20:26, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Added a picture of the badge (the Commons version exists but is still nominated for deletion), wikilinked "colony," and clarified the issues you mentioned with the FAMU chapter. KKPsi differs from most fraternities in that we don't have a national philanthropy, so it would be difficult to track down the philanthropic efforts by individual chapters. Generally, KKPsi chapters fundraise for the university's band program or for members of the band (purchasing/repairing instruments, offering scholarships, etc.) but how chapters do this is up to them. It would be difficult to get that kind of a number without a national survey by Headquarters. I can say for discussion purposes here that my chapter raises and spends around $2000 annually for projects that we do for our bands, but I don't know if that's a high or low number relative to other chapters. Because of this, I tried to include a variety of projects by chapters that had received media attention. Sycamore (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I completely understand about the lack of national philanthropy, ATΩ is in the same boat (but each chapter picks their own). I was just curious, since dealing with philanthropies was one of my main things I did as an ATΩ. I can see what I can do since Arkansas Tech has KKPsi and maybe ask around to compare. But what you did was fine and I really liked the article. Support User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:18, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * FN3: publisher, access date?
 * Be consistent in whether you provide publisher and location for magazines, etc
 * Check for minor inconsistencies like doubled periods
 * FN13: how does this meet WP:SCHOLARSHIP?
 * FN20: publisher?
 * Be consistent in when you provide retrieval dates
 * FN36, 46: page(s)? Nikkimaria (talk) 22:54, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Most of these issues have been fixed. FN36 I do not have a page for; all information I have about the source is included in the citation. Regarding FN13, this came up in its GAN and while I realize master's theses are not generally considered reliable, the thesis cites all its material and includes an appendix of many early fraternity documents and items of interest. I would contend that its existence as the only comprehensive history of the fraternity by an outside party makes it influential. All items that cite this could be backed up by the primary Fraternity documents Jameson cited, but I would have to negotiate access to them from Headquarters. Sycamore (talk) 23:15, 24 June 2012 (UTC)
 * With FN36, that same information was covered by another source so I think it could be safely removed. For FN46, I would put it as Cover or A1 and I can do that right now. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 02:30, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I submitted an interlibrary loan request for FN36. I'm fairly positive the page number is 1 but I want to make absolutely sure before I change it in the citation. Sycamore (talk) 03:22, 25 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Better, thanks. Have you managed to fill the interlibrary loan request you mention above? Nikkimaria (talk) 15:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, the page number has been added to the citation. Are there any further comments? Sycamore (talk) 16:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Additional Comments I'm in favor of it making FA, these comments are tweeks which may or may not be userful
 * I only found one duplicate link (for Colony), but the links are quite some distance apart so I'm fine with it.
 * I linked Santa Fe Railroad in the header, just seemed right.
 * Went looking through Google News, not much out there prior to 1995 at all...
 * Would http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=1h1SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fDUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4723,648867&dq=kappa-kappa-psi&hl=en be a useful ref for the Intercollegiate Band?
 * http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=0B1SAAAAIBAJ&sjid=fzUNAAAAIBAJ&pg=5481,6360042&dq=kappa-kappa-psi&hl=en According to that link at least in 1956, Purdue was the only school with a chapter with no music school, useful?
 * http://www.blackcollegewire.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4922 Jackson State's KKY chapter being revoked, not sure of use... Naraht (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * I didn't notice the duplicate link to Colony. I agree that it's far enough apart, but if someone disagrees I don't have a problem removing the second link. Google News doesn't have a whole lot of useful material, but your link and query about the NIB inspired me to look at OSU's library, and sure enough they had archived the OAMC paper that discussed the first NIB concert. I might be able to gather up enough information on the NIB to spin off a new article, but that's secondary to this. The Eta Eta revocation didn't get very much media attention and didn't result in a lawsuit like the Theta Delta situation, and since I haven't been able to find a modern source that discusses chapters with no music department, I hesitate to add something like that to the article. Thanks for the comments and support! Sycamore (talk) 03:10, 30 June 2012 (UTC)
 * Despite the source saying that "The Purdue band is the only band to have a chapter of Kappa Kappa Psi without having a music school", I don't think that's the case. As far as I can find, the University of Cincinnati (Upsilon chapter installed 1928) didn't have a music school until the Cincinnati College-Conservatory of Music became part of the university in 1962. It looks like Georgia Tech (Iota chapter installed 1924) didn't even get a music department until 1963, which only became a school of music in 2009. That's two, with just a few minutes searching; a more in-depth search could probably turn up more. cmadler (talk) 14:50, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Image review
 * File:Kappa_Kappa_Psi_Crest.svg: I'm assuming KKP holds copyright to this? Should say so explicitly. Also, why the doubled licensing tag?
 * File:National_Intercollegiate_Band_1947.jpg: use of this image doesn't meet the criteria for "unique historical image" fair use, particularly given the deficient "purpose of use" statement
 * File:Kappa_Kappa_Psi_recognition_pin.png: when was the pin pictured created? Same with File:Kappa_Kappa_Psi_prospective_pin.png and File:Kappa_Kappa_Psi_Badge.png
 * File:KKPsi-TBSigma_District_Map.svg: what base map was used to create this image? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:41, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * For the badges--I assume you mean when the physical badges were created? The badges were designed in 1920, and these badges were purchased from the jeweler between 2010-2012, but none of them have jeweler's marks denoting their creation date. The dates on each image are when the pictures were taken. The Coat of Arms and District Map issues have been fixed, and I am waiting for a reply from the National Executive Director about releasing the NIB image under a free license. Sycamore (talk) 04:01, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Note that the prospective member pin, recognition pin, and badge all survived a recent deletion discussion on Commons, where it was determined that the underlying works were all created in 1919-1920 and are unchanged since then, therefore PD. The same is true of the crest. cmadler (talk) 13:23, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I hesitate to say the same about the coat of arms. The design has changed pretty significantly since the design seen on the 1923 Baton: http://podium.kkytbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Baton.jpg Sycamore (talk) 16:58, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Actually, after thinking about it, I think the crest/coat of arms has not changed at all, but the fraternity primarily uses a different image. As with traditional heraldry, a specific image of the crest is copyrighted (by the image creator) but the blazon (description) is not, and a new free image can be created from that description. Perhaps a participant at commons:Commons:WikiProject Heraldry could create a free version? In this case it can be based on a written description as well as any PD images (pre-1923 or published without copyright notice). cmadler (talk) 19:29, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * In any case, the coat of arms (and any version that could be created from its blazon) is trademarked and it would make the most sense for us to use the actual image that the fraternity uses so we don't confuse people or misrepresent the fraternity, especially when they're talking about developing a brand (as was mentioned at this year's NCD convention). Sycamore (talk) 21:31, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Agreed that it has changed significantly, the text underneath if nothing else, and there are other changes which appear to be significant to me...Naraht (talk) 00:48, 18 July 2012 (UTC)
 * The National Executive Director has told me that the NIB photo is actually in the public domain due to its publication without copyright notice. I have updated the file's licensing information to reflect this. Sycamore (talk) 23:48, 17 July 2012 (UTC)
 * And actually, upon a thorough search through copyright records and fraternity documents, I can't find any evidence that the Coat of Arms image currently in use was ever registered for copyright or published with a copyright notice. It was first published well before 1977 and I have therefore updated its license to reflect its status as PD-US-no notice and transferred the file to Commons. Sycamore (talk) 04:14, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Okay. Could you update the image description pages for the pins/badge to include the approximate design date, rather than the upload date? Other than that, images look good. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:46, 21 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Sycamore (talk) 19:27, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

Spotchecks of sources for verification and close-paraphrasing are still needed. Graham Colm (talk) 18:38, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Source spot-check and comments – Checked seven sources and found a few issues, namely with refs 23, 43–45 (over districts), and 53. A couple of them may be my lack of familiarity with the topic, to be fair. Also noted a few other things I saw in the process.
 * Ref 23 is dead, so I couldn't check it. That will need to be dealt with in some fashion.
 * Ref 31: "The national chapter of Kappa Kappi Psi closed its FAMU chapter because of hazing and uncertainty." Article: "After the conclusion of both the police and fraternity investigations, the national council closed down the chapter because of its violations of fraternity policy and the uncertainty of the future of the FAMU band program." The source also mentions "uncertainty over the leadership and direction of FAMU's music department", so that part's covered.
 * Ref 31 again: "28 members of the fraternity have been expelled. That includes all undergraduates and pledges from the spring of 2010." Article: "As part of the chapter's termination, twenty-eight members, including all active and prospective members in spring 2010, were expelled from the fraternity." No problems here.
 * Ref 32: Covers the same material as ref 31. Neither ref 31 nor 32 mentions the investigations, but there are two other sources covering that sentence that I didn't check. Maybe one of them has that covered.
 * For refs 43, 44, and 45, I don't see a mention of districts X and XI. Is that the same as Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma?
 * Ref 45 covers the second sentence it sources adequately, with no close paraphrasing concerns. The third sentence it sources must have material from page 4, which I don't see on Google News. I assume good faith that this is sourced adequately, based on what else I've seen.
 * Ref 53 says that the caboose was purchased by the director of Kappa Kappa Psi and Tau Beta Sigma, not by the group itself. Also, it mentions a museum, not a history program, although perhaps they are one and the same. I haven't read enough of the article to know that.
 * While I'm here, ref 25 needs a publisher and access date.
 * Still needs those things. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Sycamore (talk) 03:48, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Also, ref 33 needs the publisher (Tallahassee Democrat) italicized.
 * Last word of the Early 21st Century section heading should be decapitalized, as that isn't a term that should normally be capitalized. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 00:36, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref 23: I have found a copy of the original article at http://www.insidehazing.com/headlines.php?idno=685&headlines2Page=4. Would this be acceptable as an archived version of the original article in lieu of a Webcite archive? The archive from Archive.org does not seem to be working.
 * As a rule, I'm leery about using non-official websites like this for archives. That makes it dependent on how reliable insidehazing.com is. Is an offline cite possible? Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I agree, but I can't find a reliable archive anywhere and don't have access to an offline copy. I have removed the section in question for now but if I can find an acceptable archival copy or get a physical copy through interlibrary loan I'll readd it. Sycamore (talk) 03:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref 32: As you guessed, refs 33 and 34 refer to the investigation.
 * Refs 43-45: These sources refer to the "Atlantic Coast Intercollegiate Band" performing at the "First Annual Atlantic Coast Convention" at the University of Virginia in 1958. That sentence also cites ref 18, which clarifies that this was at the District X and XI Convention: "Both Districts agreed to meet together for Convention in 1958." "1958 District X and XI Convention held the first ever District Intercollegiate Band." "Convention Site: 1958 University of Virginia (Districts X and XI)". I'm not sure why the newspaper references refer to an "Atlantic Coast Convention" rather than Districts X and XI because there has never officially been an "Atlantic Coast District" of KKPsi or TBSigma. I hope this is adequate. As for the Google News problem, I tracked down page 4 which was mistakenly included with a future issue here. What would be the most prudent way to include this link?
 * I'd pipe it to page 4 in the citation's page numbers. That way you don't have to make another reference and split the cites up. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:07, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Done. Sycamore (talk) 03:56, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
 * Ref 53: The caboose was purchased by the fraternity, but Col. Bonner is the specific person who, as executive director, made the purchase. I think putting that Bonner purchased it in the article would be splitting hairs. The museum and history program are essentially the same.
 * Ref 33 and Early 21st century: Fixed. Sycamore (talk) 06:37, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
 * I won't strike the spot-checks, to keep them visible, but I'm satisfied that the concerns have been taken care of. Giants2008  ( Talk ) 01:06, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - This article looks good enough and satisfies the FA criteria. Keep up the good work. Lord Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 01:48, 8 August 2012 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.