Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kellie Loder/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:Ian Rose 10:01, 22 September 2013 (UTC).

Kellie Loder

 * Nominator(s): Neelix (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because I believe that it meets the criteria. This article has received a copyedit from a member of the Guild of Copyeditors and has also passed a good article nomination. Neelix (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Images are all fine, captions are good. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Source review - spotchecks not done
 * Since most readers do not have the advantage of being Canadian, you might want to either include province or wikilink locations like Springdale
 * Suggest also wikilinking Tom Cochrane
 * FN27/28: possible to give the time of the broadcast? Also, italicization is wrong here: the segment shouldn't be italicized, the news show (NTV Evening News) probably should be. Nikkimaria (talk) 15:19, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for the review. I have wikilinked Tom Cochrane and the locations in the citations. I can call NTV on Monday to see if they can give me a time for that broadcast. Neelix (talk) 00:54, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have received the broadcast time from NTV and added it to the relevant citations. Do you have any additional concerns regarding the article? Neelix (talk) 17:37, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Review from Cliftonian
Support for FA status, meets the criteria in my book. See review below. Well done Neelix! —Cliftonian (talk) 08:43, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

The nominator asked me to look at this article, which, despite a near-total ignorance of popular music, I have done. The prose is excellent (very natural and seemingly effortless – most readable) there is no sign of bias, the references are evidently from reputable publications. My only question is about the length of the article. It is very short for a Featured Article, but of course if this is all there is to say then so be it: we don't want padding to bulk it out. There is some WP:OVERLINK that could do with pruning - traffic accident, drummer, Christian, faith, piano, recording studio and music industry for starters. I think I'd like to see what other editors better versed than I in popular music think about the length of the article before I sign up as a supporter, but I have lively hopes of being able to do so. Tim riley (talk) 15:45, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Comment, leaning to support
 * Thank you for reviewing this article. I have reduced the overlinking. All the secondary sources I have been able to find are already used in the article; I have searched using Google Books, Google News, Google Web Search, and several newspaper and journal databases accessible through my local library. If you discover any additional sources, I would be glad to add them to the article. Neelix (talk) 01:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Reading the comments below reassures me that the brevity of the article does not imply any omissions. I am happy to add my support. I gladly echo SchroCat's comment – "small but perfectly formed". Tim riley (talk) 15:12, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments
 * "Loder's music career is unusual in that she chose to begin it in Contemporary Christian music (CCM); most young musicians choose music genres such as country and pop, which are generally considered more likely to bring commercial success." – The link to the television broadcast goes to a page that does not have the video. Likewise, a link to a CBC radio broadcast also links to a page but not the broadcast.
 * "… her first song, which was about a cousin who had died in a traffic accident, used lyrics from a poem by a friend who was also close to Loder's late cousin. Loder began performing this song, and her family encouraged her in singing and songwriting; she then wrote another song for a friend's graduation." – Can we name these songs?
 * ""Giants" eventually appeared her albums The Way and Imperfections & Directions." -- "Giants" eventually appeared on both her albums The Way and Imperfections & Directions.
 * "She was nominated as Female Artist of the Year at the 2010 MusicNL awards with Mary Barry, Teresa Ennis, Irene Bridger and Amelia Curran" – Fix the link to Teresa Ennis.
 * "the song's lyrics revolve around the idea that the grace and mercy of God can be found in the most difficult situations." – Fix link to "mercy of God".
 * "Although Loder lost the Juno Award to downhere, an alternative rock band" – Link downhere.
 * "at the Stavanger Drive Second Cup on the 15th and at Cornerstone Ministry Centre on the 21st" – Fix link to Stavanger Drive.Jimknut (talk) 18:55, 24 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your comments. I have switched the three links you mentioned and corrected the grammatical error you pointed out. The television broadcast and radio broadcast citations include the links as additional information, not to present the video and audio sources themselves; both the video file and the audio file no longer exist online, but these are still valid sources as they have been broadcast on specified dates on television and radio respectively. I can remove the url field from these citations if that is deemed an improvement. The names of the first two songs Loder wrote do not appear in any sources I have been able to find; I am under the impression that neither of these songs appear on her albums or were ever released in another formal capacity. Because downhere is linked in its first instance, I believe linking it a second time in the body of the article would be considered overlinking, but feel free to correct me on this point if I am mistaken. Neelix (talk) 01:46, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Comments from SchroCat
I made a couple of minor changes: feel free to revert if you don't agree or like them.

Early life
 * "used lyrics from a poem by a friend who was also close to Loder's late cousin": feels a bit clunky to me. Perhaps "used lyrics from a poem by a mutual friend of her cousin" may suffice, unless others can come up with better wording?
 * CBC Radio source: I presume there's a clip on the source to listen to? It might be worth noting somehow, somewhere that it's not available to listen to in all territories.
 * "favours": Do Canadians also spell this with the U? (Do they also spell "generalizing" and " organization" with a Z? I am asking from a position of ignorance, but also to make sure it's consistent with CanEng spelling.

Music career
 * "Loder met Devin Robinson, a record producer; Loder released her first album...": seems a bit of a jump from met to produce with only a semi-comma to cover what happened in the middle! Perhaps a little meat on the bones may help? Suggestion below for you to compare with your original: pick whichever you feel more comfortable with:
 * In 2008, while studying nursing at the Grenfell Campus of Memorial University of Newfoundland through the Western Regional School of Nursing, Loder met Devin Robinson, a record producer. The meeting led to a Robinson producing Loder's first album, The Way, which was recorded at Sweet Music Studios. Loder wrote all 11 songs for the album, which was released in August 2009.


 * "hosted by Corner Brook, St. John's, and Gander in different years". Firstly an event is hosted by people, but in a town. Secondly, do we need to know that the location of the competition alternates locations? Just put where it was when Loder won.

Good stuff overall - small but perfectly formed! - SchroCat (talk) 02:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the encouragement and input, Gavin! I have reworded the sentences you have indicated and removed the information about YC Newfoundland's alternating between locations. The CBC Radio citation links to a webpage where the audio clip used to be accessible, but is no longer. A brief summary of the broadcast is still located on that webpage. I can remove the url if that is deemed an improvement; the citation is valid without it. Thank you for taking an interest in Canadian spelling. The words you indicate in that question are all spelled correctly in the article. Here is a helpful table on the subject: . Please let me know if you have any further concerns regarding the article. Neelix (talk) 19:33, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Support - SchroCat (talk) 10:31, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comments from Cassianto
-- I think the last sentence is a bit redundant as we have already said that she won the contest. I don't really think we need to be reminded where it took place and when. May I suggest: "Also that year, she won a talent-search contest hosted by YC Newfoundland, a Christian youth conference, where she performed "Giants".
 * Early life
 * Why do we link music?
 * ..." according to Loder, her mother frequently placed headphones on her belly while Loder..." -- Suggest pronoun for the second mention of surname.
 * "playing Michael W. Smith's music" -- suggest past tense here.
 * link to pew?
 * Do we need to link "writing songs"?
 * Do we know what the first song was called?
 * "Loder began performing this song, and her family encouraged her in singing and songwriting; she then wrote another song" -- Repetietive use of "song" and its deriritives, suggest: "With encouragement from her family, Loder concentrated on her singing and songwriting and performed this and a follow up song..."
 * "Loder says that, while she enjoys all the instruments she plays, she favours the piano, considering it the most beautiful." -- Pronoun will do at the start. You will need to go through the article and check for this as this is the second time now that I have picked this up.
 * Music career
 * "Also that year, she won a talent-search contest hosted by YC Newfoundland, a Christian youth conference. The conference took place in Gander that year..."
 * "As part of the award, which was valued at $20,000, Loder was given an East Coast Music Association membership, a MusicNL trade association membership, time at a recording studio, time with music industry and production professionals, and a featured performance slot at the following year's YC Newfoundland." -- Repetition here of "membership" and "time". Suggest this or something similar: "As part of the award, which was valued at $20,000, Loder was given a membership for both the East Coast Music and MusicNL trade associations, and was given time at a recording studio and advice from music industry and production professionals. She was also engaged in a featured performance slot at the following year's YC Newfoundland."
 * "She later referred to the music professionals she met as part of the award package..." "as part of the award package" is redundant here.
 * "She said that she was surprised by the large turnout for the event." -- If she said it then it should be quoted. If not, suggest "thought" or "noted" or something else.
 * "Loder moved to St. John's in January 2010, and performed alongside Starfield and Roy Martin later that year at the Exploits Valley Salmon Festival gospel concert, attended by hundreds, in Grand Falls-Windsor." -- "attended by hundreds" is an irritant which would otherwise get in the way of a nicely laid out sentence. Could this be either swapped for "the popular" before Exploits Valley Salmon Festival, or removed altogether?
 * "She also performed at the 2010 One Worship Festival in Springdale, and released Imperfections & Directions, another independent release, at YC Newfoundland that October." -- Was this the official release of Imperfections & Direction? If it was, could you say so as we speak of this album in the previous paragraph and one might assume that this has already been released.
 * "A reporter noted that "the album demonstrates how Loder wears her faith and love of God on her sleeve." -- Do we know for which medium the reporter worked? Not essential, but it would be nice to know what kind of media was commenting.
 * We appear to have suddenly been told that she studied nursing. This is the first mention of this unless I have missed it.  When was this?  Could this be built in chronologically to the text?
 * Prose is a bit iffy here "She stated that she wrote the song at a hard time in her life..." -- This is also not quoted so I shall use poetic licence for an alternative. Suggest:  "She confessed that she had written the song during a difficult phase in her life"?  This also removes the repetetive "stated" you use in the next sentence.
 * "her grandmother's house" -- redundency.
 * "Loder was inspired to write the song by the interview." -- redundency.
 * Do we need a link to "text message"?
 * "Loder has said that she chose CCM because it gives purpose to her music" -- Quotes? If not, I would change "said" to some other descriptive term.


 * Lead
 * "With a voice that has been described as "powerful yet serene and soulful"" -- By who?
 * "As of April 2012, she had not decided whether she would focus on medicine or music." -- Again here, we have been surprised with the fact she had a prior interest in medicine. This should be mentioned a lot earlier as well as here.

I have finished my review. I note Jim's comments below and feel I have to agree with the majority of them, especially the lack of sales or chart positions of her records and no critical reception section. Jim has provided a good set of comments that will need to be addressed. I will base my support on your responses to them as I think at least four of them are vital for a music related biography. --  Cassianto Talk   11:22, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the comments, Cassianto, and for the promise of additional ones. I have removed the links to music and songwriter, linked pew, reworded the two sentences you indicate, and switched many instances of "Loder" to "she" throughout the article. Unfortunately, the name of the first song Loder wrote does not appear in any of the sources I have been able to find; I do not believe the song was ever released in any professional manner. Neelix (talk) 19:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I have implemented all of the changes you recommended above, except one which I was unsure about how to address. You suggest that Loder's nursing studies be mentioned earlier in the article. They are mentioned in the first sentence of the "Music career" section. Do you feel that this statement should appear in the "Early life" section? I would be grateful for any advice you can provide in how to address Jim's concerns stated below. I have already implemented all of the information from all of the sources I have been able to find on Loder, so I don't know how to proceed. What are the four things you mention that are vital? Neelix (talk) 22:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)


 * I think the nursing should be mentioned in the lead, specifically in the second paragraph chronologically. I also agree with the following issues given by Jim:
 * The article needs a sales/charts/critical reception section.
 * I think the hockey game is given a bit too much emphasis. This will need to be trimmed and more time spent on explaining her national as opposed to local fame. --   Cassianto Talk   10:03, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I have moved the mention of Loder's nursing studies to the beginning of the second paragraph, added a "Critical response" section, deephasized the hockey game, added some sales information (selling out of original album and door-to-door sales thereafter), and added some information about Loder's national fame (Loder's regular featuring on Rogers TV). If you can think of any other ways in which I can address Jim's concerns, please let me know. Neelix (talk) 18:12, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Support from Oppose for now from Jim I started with just a few nitpicks, but became increasingly concerned as I went along  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  14:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Support – I agree. Kudos to Neelix for making the most of what little was there. --   Cassianto Talk   11:23, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
 * when she "started to accept [her] gifts for what they were... and just assumed it was God.—as written, it says her gifts were God
 * eventually appeared on both of her albums —is the "of" redundant or Canadian?
 * lost the Juno Award to downhere, an alternative rock band&mdash;If downhere is a band, I assume it should be capped
 * No sales or chart positions of her records, no critical reception section. I would have thought these were basic requirements of a musician's article.
 * Instead, she is effectively allowed to commentate on her own music and god-given gifts.
 * I suppose that she is just about notable because of the Juno award, but there is precious little in your article to suggest anything else other than local/niche fame, and I'm surprised that that a hockey game is deemed more relevant than sales/charts/critical reception. If there is no detectable reception of her music, letting her promote her godly gifts comes close to spam. Doesn't anyone dislike/have mixed views of her stuff?
 * I came across this. I don't have much time for Ottava, a known trouble-maker, but, having read the Loder section, I thought it only fair to invite you to respond.
 * Thank you for your considered review of this article. I have reworded the sentence you mention about gifts. I am under the impression that "both of" is grammatically correct; there are more than three thousand Google Books hits for the string "both of Canada's official languages". The band downhere styles its name with all lowercase letters; I thought it best to honour that on this article, but I can switch the capitalization if there is consensus to do so. Where would one find the sales or chart positions of Loder's records? I am under the impression that neither of her albums has charted or sold a large number of copies. I have done as thorough a job at finding sources for this article as I know how. As such, I do not believe that anyone has written reviews of Loder's music beyond what is already included in the article. Loder's notability rests primarily on her Juno nomination (criterion 8 of our notability guidelines for musicians); neither of her albums are sufficiently notable to justify their own articles. I would be grateful for any recommendations of additional sources you know of or are able to find. Would you recommend removing some of Loder's comments in light of the lack of critical response? I generally find it unwise to respond to comments on websites like Wikipedia Review, but I would be glad to respond here to any of Ottava's concerns that you believe to have merit. Neelix (talk) 17:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Thanks for replies. I'm fine with the minor points. Further clarification below  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  06:30, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * FWIW, I'm not bothered by Ottava's comments. They concern single phrases where the source says "X did Y" and there is little scope to do more than "Y was done by X". I don't see genuine plagiarism. I just thought I should make you aware of the accusations if you weren't already
 * Relying just on the Juno is a bit one event.
 * As a consequence of the lack of independent commentary, we are reliant on her description of her talents, god-given or otherwise.
 * This is a well-written article. I've supported your previous FACs, and I would like to do so with this, since I'm a reluctant opposer at the best of times. However, unless some solution can be found to the outstanding issues, it's likely that my oppose will stand, and it will be for the delegates to decide what weight to give (I've had several FAs go through with an oppose). I'd be interested to read other reviews so see if I'm completely out of kilter on this
 * Thank you for your encouragement despite opposing the FAC. I have made an attempt to address your concerns, as I explain above in my response to Cassianto. If I have not already addressed your concerns, I feel as though there may be no way to address them except to delete the article; all the known existing sources have been fully exploited. Are you calling for the article to be deleted? Neelix (talk) 18:19, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * Do we know what the original run was? I've seen the changes, but I'll have another look in the morning. I can see you have probably done all you can, I need to ponder  Jimfbleak -  talk to me?  18:35, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * How do you mean "delete"? Do you mean delist at FAC? I want it known that I am leaning to support this now as your responses have been satisfactorily met IMO. I do think the "Critical response" section is a little on the short side, but at least we have something in the way of critical response.  Could you dig up any more? --   Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   19:51, 29 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I've struck my oppose, but it still looks a bit thin. Is it worth seeing if her agent can point you to some factual stuff, like numbers of records sold (has to be referenceable, so may not be easy. <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  07:19, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I haven't managed to find the number of albums produced in the original run, but I did manage to find another CBC Radio interview and have implemented it in the article. The "Critical response" section is a bit longer now. I have contacted Kellie Loder Music to ask for chart/sales information and for any additional reviews I may have missed. Neelix (talk) 18:55, 30 August 2013 (UTC)
 * I may be scraping the bottom of the barrell at this point, but I found a brief mention Loder in Grenfell Connects that indicates radio play of her songs on a national level. Kellie Loder Music still hasn't gotten back to me. Neelix (talk) 17:54, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I think anything is better than nothing, as long as it comes with some kind of reliability. No rush with the Loder people, I'm sure a small wait would be fine. --  Cassianto <sup style="font-family:Papyrus;">Talk   22:37, 2 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I think the nominator has done all that is feasible on content, and I have no problems with the prose. I've therefore changed to support above, but perhaps the next FAC might be for someone a bit more, well, notable (: <b style="font-family:chiller; color:red;"> Jimfbleak - </b> talk to me?  10:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Comment -- I note the discussion re. the Critical response section and I have to say to say it does jar somewhat to me. First of all, has she received nothing but praise in her time? OTOH, given there's not much to the section, it might work better dropping it and simply rolling one or two of the comments into the main section at appropriate points. BTW, just on the formatting side, I suspect that ndashes, not mdashes, are correct for the Awards list. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 04:44, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have searched extensively and have not found any published reviews of her albums; I have found no published negative criticism of her music, and the only positive criticism has been from people interviewing her, who are likely to provide praise in the context of an interview. I have therefore merged the "Critical response" section into the "Music career" section as you recommend. I have also switched the em-dashes to en-dashes in the "Awards and nominations" section. Do you have any other concerns regarding the article? Neelix (talk) 17:45, 9 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Well my suggestion was to roll one or two bits from Critical response into the main body, not necessarily all of it. For instance, professional commentators are one thing but I'm not sure that the opinions of politicians and radio listeners really belong. Of course I'd be happy to hear how any of the reviewers above stand on that. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I have re-split-off the "Critical response" section, retaining only the comments from professional critics. Please let me know if you have further recommendations. Neelix (talk) 23:33, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
 * Apologies if I confused you. What I was getting to was that such a small section (which it was even in its original form) should be dropped, and some of the comments rolled into the main body at relevant points, the rest of the section to just go. So if what's there now was merged into the main section at appropriate points, I think it'd be an improvement. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:44, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
 * I hope I have correctly understood your recommendations this time around. I have removed the comments from the politician and the anonymous listener, and have remerged the "Critical response" section into the "Music career" section. How does that look? Neelix (talk) 16:07, 17 September 2013 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 13:30, 20 September 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.