Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kenora Thistles/archive3

Kenora Thistles

 * Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 20:57, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

My third attempt here, and hopefully the last. Previous attempts failed due to lack of comments, so in the interest of rousing enough interest, I'm pinging users who commented on the previous FAC:. For those not aware, the Kenora Thistles are the team from the smallest city in North America to win a major championship, and also the shortest title-holders, losing it two months after winning back in January 1907. The article has gone through GA and a GOCE review, so hopefully this will be the last time it's brought here. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:57, 10 February 2019 (UTC)


 * SC


 * A marker to remind me: I'll be here tomorrow, hopefully. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 22:03, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Formation
 * "handily"? I'm not sure what was "handy" about it, unless the term has a different meaning to "useful" in Canada
 * Apparently it's a Canadian thing, as it would mean easily or simply. I've changed it to be clearer.


 * 1903 Stanley
 * For those of us not au fait with the terminology, perhaps a footnote to explain what a "total-goal series" actually is?


 * March 1907
 * I presume the ECAHA is the Eastern Canada Amateur Hockey Association? If so the first full name of it should have "(ECAHA)" after it.
 * Done


 * Sources
 * There are two sources listed that are not used: these should be taken out:
 * Diamond, Dan, ed. (2002), Total Hockey
 * Zweig, Eric (2012–2013b), "Bonjour Montréal"
 * Removed

That's it from me. An interesting piece on something I'd no knowledge on before. I'm leaning heavily to support, but I'd like to hear on the above before I commit myself. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:46, 11 February 2019 (UTC)
 * "Handily" means "with ease"/"easily". So you could phrase "handily defeating their opponents" as "easily defeating their opponents" but you find "handily" quite often at least in ice hockey-related texts, I think it usually tends to be next to "won" or "defeated [an opponent]" and to me implies both an easy and thorough victory. This word usage must definitely be a North American peculiarity.  Maxim (talk)  03:40, 12 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks for looking through it, always nice to have someone unfamiliar look at it as well, to ensure it makes sense. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:28, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Support. Lovely - This meets the FA criteria, as far as I am concerned. Nicely readable and there are no obvious gaps (from the point of view of someone who has never read about this until now). Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 17:14, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Support I had previously reviewed and had my comments addressed on a previous passthrough at FAC.  A re-review shows that nothing has changed that, and the minor tweaks for the other review have helped that out.  Canada Hky (talk) 17:51, 13 February 2019 (UTC)


 * Support I have read through it each of the times it has gone through but I tend to not comment on ice hockey articles going for GA/FA because I edit in the area too much so like to avoid bias. That being said I really can't find anything at all in the article that would make me think it shouldn't pass. -DJSasso (talk) 15:20, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Comments by Squeamish Ossifrage
Prose looks pretty solid. A few concerns:
 * Images lack alt text.
 * Added


 * You have a couple of web sources with problems. For both of them, you use the site's domain name as if it were the name of the website: KenoraThistles.com and NWOSportsHallofFame.com. URLs are not (usually) website names and shouldn't be presented as such. There are exceptions, but neither of these are among them.
 * Fixed this.
 * The Kenora Thistles site is probably my biggest sourcing concern. Is there any chance this is replaceable? Local newspaper article, anything? Two-thirds of the cited page outright declares that it is providing content from Wikipedia. I understand that you're citing an uncontroversial piece of local information, and that your source is the bit of the page that's not mirroring WP, but... the appearance of citogenesis is a concern. If you have to retain this source, the website is not KenoraThistles.com, but Kenora Senior AAA Thistles.
 * I found something that should do the job. Agree it was not the best source.
 * For the latter, I would suggest presenting the site name as Northwestern Ontario Sports Hall of Fame but not crediting an author (there is no byline given, even an organizational one). Also for that source in particular,  Kenora Thistles Page is not really correct as a page title; it is true that you are linking to a page about the Kenora Thistles, but it's not actually titled anything with "Page". I'll agree that the way they format their individual pages makes it more challenging that usual to identify a title here. I would go with  1907 Kenora Thistles Senior Hockey .
 * Fixed


 * You have some variation in whether you use title case or sentence case for article titles. Specifically, the Toronto Star article is in sentence case, and nothing else is, which is probably easily corrected.
 * That is just from copy and pasting the titles used. But I've modified the Star article title, and the newly-added Hamilton Spectator article.


 * Other than the one awkward website noted above, sourcing looks strong and generally comprehensive. Out of curiosity (and comprehensiveness), have you looked at: (text available here). Needless to say, you'd use a citation template not a cite template there, but I'm more familiar with cite, so you get my inquiry using it instead!
 * I actually have read the article, and have copy of it saved. But I recall it didn't have much that would specifically help here, and a quick glance through confirms my initial thoughts. But if you have different views please let me know, I'm certainly not opposed to using it.

Lean support. Most of these are quick fixes. I'm a little worried about that one source, though. Squeamish Ossifrage (talk) 22:13, 15 February 2019 (UTC)
 * I think I addressed everything here, but if there's anything else just let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:12, 16 February 2019 (UTC)

Support Comments by from Sportsfan77777
Noting that I reviewed this article for GA status.
 * I would go back to referring to the Kenora Thistles using plural, as that's what is done for most (if not all?) hockey teams. (e.g. "The Kenora Thistles were" and "The team was" are both correct grammatically.)
 * I may be missing something, but I only see the initial sentence ("The Kenora Thistles, officially the Thistles Hockey Club, was an ice hockey team...") that needed fixing. If there's others please let me know.


 * After the copyediting, the sentence "The Thistles won the Cup in January 1907 and defended it that March losing it in a challenge series" sounds like they lost the cup in their first defense. I would change it to: "The Thistles won the Cup in January 1907 and defended it once before losing it in a challenge series that March."
 * Fixed


 * Not sure why I didn't suggest this before, but I would move the first paragraph of the "1905 Stanley Cup challenge" to make it the last paragraph of "League play, 1902–05".
 * Moved.
 * Addressed what you have so far, but I'll keep an eye for further comments. Kaiser matias (talk) 18:17, 16 February 2019 (UTC)
 * Did you have anything to add, Sportsfan? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 11:10, 4 March 2019 (UTC)

More minor comments:
 * An ice rink called the Princess Rink was built in 1886, replaced in 1897 by the Victoria Rink with more seats (1,000), and a larger ice surface. ===>>> An ice rink called the Princess Rink was built in 1886. It was replaced in 1897 by the Victoria Rink which had more seats (1,000) and a larger ice surface.
 * The Thistles easily won the league championship, and challenged Ottawa for the Stanley Cup. ===>>> The Thistles easily won the league championship, and again challenged Ottawa for the Stanley Cup.
 * The Montreal Star claimed the Thistles were not only the fastest team from the West to challenge for the cup... ===>>> The Montreal Star claimed the Thistles were not only the fastest team from the west to challenge for the Cup... ("Cup" should definitely be capitalized, not sure about "west")
 * all under twenty-years-old ===>>> all under twenty years old

Will support after these points are addressed. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 18:48, 5 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Addressed all those. Thanks again for taking a look. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:17, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

Coord note
Don't think we've had an image licensing review -- you can request at the top of WT:FAC. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 09:45, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I've added a request. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:47, 2 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Image review:
 * File:Rat Portage Thistles 1900.jpg: Link should not point to the image directly.
 * A little unclear what you mean here. Can you clarify?
 * Generally, a source link should point to a webpage on which the file is displayed, not a hotlink/direct link to the file. Think this and not this. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:25, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Thanks, I understand what you mean now. Thought it was in reference to the image within the article itself. Added a more relevant link. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * File:Silver7.jpg and File:Kenorathistles.jpg: Broken source link.
 * Updated the links to their source.
 * File:Montreal Wanderers in Winnipeg 1907.jpg: How do we know that that license applies?
 * At the moment I can't confirm, and until I get confirmation I'll remove it.
 * All images appear to be reasonably placed. Manual of Style/Accessibility/Alternative text for images suggests that the ALT text should say what the image is, rather than what it contains, in this context. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 11:12, 3 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Have modified the alt-text to what I believe you are referring to. If that's not better let me know.
 * Addressed things here, except for my question about the first point. Kaiser matias (talk) 19:19, 3 March 2019 (UTC)

Following up, I think we're about ready to promote but I'd like to see this quote, which appears twice, attributed inline, at least in the main body: "as a team of hometown boys who used to play shinny together on the streets of Rat Portage" -- as is we don't know for sure if this is a contemporary or a retrospective observation, let alone who said it. Tks/cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 02:43, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * The quote comes from the Lappage article and was written by him, but as noted in the second instance it was him paraphrasing the contemporary press. I've tried to clarify that in that section, so hopefully that makes it a little clearer. Kaiser matias (talk) 20:51, 9 March 2019 (UTC)
 * Works for me, tks. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:34, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 22:35, 9 March 2019 (UTC)