Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Kibbutz/archive1

kibbutz
Admittedly a self nom, please review, post votes and comments.Dinopup 04:41, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Phils 16:05, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Support - well-written, very good article. Morwen - Talk 12:44, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Support. Johnleemk | Talk 14:23, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)
 * Object. This article needs extensive copyediting. The prose simply isn't at the level you'd expect from a featured article. I have no problem with adopting a more informal style in certain articles, but there are just too many sentences that require fixing in there. A few problems I see with the writing, in no particular order:
 * some sentences could use more precision or have dubious wording ("This part of the ideology can be best expressed in the Zionist-kibbutz saying "to make the desert bloom."" - it's easy the to understand the author meant the ideology at hand can be illustrated by the saying, but the sentence is somewhat strange).
 * a lot of inaccurate punctuation and typos, including inconsistent use of kibbutzim vs. kibbutz (ex.: "The place of primary kibbutz focus - the Galilee was a well-watered place.", "The first kibbutzniks hoped to be more than being farmers in Palestine, they even hoped for more than a Jewish homeland there, they wanted to create a new type of society where there would be no exploitation of anyone and where all would be equal.").
 * repetition (including recurrence of uncommon words - "hitherto" - and re-use of metaphors "fissure" used twice in 2-3 sentences to mean a "split in the movement")
 * inconsistent use of times - why are sections like "Life on a kibbutz" written in the past: there are next to no specific dates given in that section
 * lack of structure: "The Pioneers" touches subjects like the status of children in a kibbutz, military involvement of "kibbutzniks" in Isreal, questions of ownership, that should be treated in seperate sections (perhaps subsections of "Life on a kibbutz?")
 * I'm not sure I like the reference quoting style ((Gavron, 45)). I do not consider it a good reason to object though, because we don't really have a standard way of referencing inline quotes, but I doubt everyone will immediately understand where they need to go to find a specific quote when confronted with a reference given in this format.
 * "The Pioneers" section should be refocused on the historical Degania kibbutz, and give more dates and precise quantitative information about the early kibbutz movement. Throughout the whole section, it is unclear wether "kibbutzniks" refers only to the original Degania kibbutz members or to all members of early kibbutzim. More precise dates please. Also, "kibbutzim in Independent Israel" - is it correct to capitalize "independent"? - should become a subsection of "The Pioneers".
 * Although this is probably the least of this (quite good, don't get me wrong) article, I can't help suspecting the author has a certain admiration for the whole movement ("...fought very bravely", capitalized section name "The Pioneers"). I might very well be wrong, though.


 * I made all of the edits based on Phils' suggestions. I got rid of repeated uncommon words, I clarified the "make the desert bloom" quotation.  Since it wasn't clear when I was talking about Degania and when I was talking about the whole kibbutz movement I made things clearer there as well.  (Degania was the first kibbutz, but in many ways it was not a typical kibbutz, hence the frequent references to it).  I also explained the terms "kibbutznik" and "kibbutzim."  A kibbutznik is just a member of a kibbutz.  All the sources I read used "kibbutzniks" as the plural, rather than "kibbutznikim" (which I suppose is the Hebrew plural).  In case of objection to my using "fought bravely," I changed that bit to "were widely considered to have fought bravely."  I use the term Pioneers because traditional kibbutz historiography calls the earliest kibbutzniks "Pioneers."


 * There was also an issue with "Life on a Kibbutz" being in the past tense. Since I was discussing life on a kibbutz in the days of communal living (as opposed to the last 20 yrs), I changed that heading to "The Communal Life."


 * Phils, thank you for your suggestions, I can tell that you read the article very carefully.Dinopup 18:19, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)


 * Object. Agree this needs further copyediting, wikilinks, and possibly further sectioning.--ZayZayEM 02:44, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)