Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Killdeer/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 15:02, 16 December 2018.

Killdeer

 * Nominator(s): RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

This article is about a (primarily) North American shorebird. It is found both inland and on the coast. I became interested in it after I saw a few at school last spring. Recently, I tried to bring it to FA status, but failed. I have improved the article and gotten a GA review, so I hope it is better now. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:01, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

From FunkMonk

 * Seems many issues were fixed by the GA review, so definitely the way to go before FAC. I'll review this soon. FunkMonk (talk) 21:19, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I wonder if this is a clearer, or at least more dramatic, photo of the injury faking:
 * It definitely displays the "broken-wing" better; added. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * I think it's always good to show how a bird looks in flight (can aid birders, for example), how about one of these? Perhaps under habitat?
 * Added the first one, as it more clearly shows the underparts and underside of the wing. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Ah, looking again, maybe th Cuban image should be moved under distribution then? Since the point of it is to show a local population. Now it is kind of crammed under the taxobox. FunkMonk (talk) 00:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Seems to be the last point. FunkMonk (talk) 06:02, 28 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I've been thinking about this one, and I think I agree with you; moved. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:03, 29 October 2018 (UTC)


 * You made a point of adding location to image captions at the GAN, why not in the taxobox caption?
 * Added. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "This binomial has not been changed" I don't think this needs to be its own sentence, it could be better tacked onto the former sentence as ", a name which has not changed since" or some such.
 * Used a semi-colon to connect the two sentences. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "an account of it" Give year.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Introduce people mentioned.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "in the fourth-century Vulgate" Add "bible".
 * done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "The specific vociferus" Spell out specific name.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "C. v. peruvianus (Chapman, 1920)" If the parenthesis is because it was originally described as a separate species, this should be mentioned.
 * It seems that it described by Chapman under the genus name Oxyechus, at least according to AviBase. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * In that case it needs a mention. FunkMonk (talk) 00:29, 17 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Added as a footnote. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "The killdeer's name" Common name.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Seems some of those external links are redundant. If the article contains all the same info, we don't need extra links.
 * Removed 3 external links. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * No word on most closely related species and evolution?
 * Nope; I can't find anything on it. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 12:41, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * A quick Google search gave me these, sure there is more. FunkMonk (talk) 12:46, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * Oh, I didn't see that first one. Thanks; added. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 16 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The description is a bit of a wall of text. Perhaps split it at "The female's mask"?
 * Sounds good. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "and very locally south to Panama" What does this mean?
 * It's basically what HBW said; I assume, though, that it means while it does breed to Panama, it only does so on an irregular basis. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "and those with cattle"? Why?
 * Added in parentheses. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Behaviour" This section is usually called behaviour and ecology in bird FAs, with predators as a subsection.
 * I don't think that's correct, most bird FAs actually have just "Behaviour" Jimfbleak - talk to me?  09:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "although another estimate... gives about two million" Why "although>", it doesn't contradict that the population is large, but confirms it.
 * Fixed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 06:12, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * " While egg-laying" This is ambiguous. Do you mean brooding, or laying eggs?
 * Not specified; I'm pretty sure it means the period of egg-laying itself; changed "while" to "during"


 * "until a normal response is calling at a stand" What does this mean?
 * I seemed to have misread the source a tidge; it said "standing calling". I removed "at a stand". RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "and charges at the intruder." With the rump first?
 * "While in this crouched posture, the bird lunges towards the intruder in an apparent effort to halt its approach." It seems so, heh. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Ground chases occur when a killdeer has been approached multiple times by another killdeer; similarly, flight chases occur when an individual has been approached from the air. Both are forms of territorial defense" Is any of this related to breeding, though?
 * Yes, as they forms of territorial defense; I have no information on them being used as a mating display. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "keep the nest cool or to help conceal the nest." Last "nest" could be "it".
 * Done; also removed last "to help". RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "and there are occasionally two broods" What is meant by this? In the same nest, or in separate nests?
 * I couldn't find this, but I found that they usually laid in the same nesting territory; added. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:48, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "In these two parents broods" Parent's? And why is "two" needed? It is a bit oddly worded this sentence.
 * Removed "two parents"


 * "The young are brooded, until about 15 days after hatching, during rain, and, until about 18 days after hatching, at night." I'm not sure what this means. They are brooded less during rain and more during night?
 * It means that if the young are under 15 days of age, they are brooded during rain, and if they are under 18 days of age, they are also brooded at night; rijigged and replaced "at" with "during". RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae." Too much detail for the intro, the name of the describer is enough there.
 * Removed extraneous information. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:49, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * ""the originally described population)" That would be the originally described subspecies. Population is not the same.
 * Ok; changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "The nest itself is a scrape" Only stated in intro.
 * Added to body. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * "This likely evolved because of increased insect abundance and reduced predation during the night." Evolved is a bit strong here, "this is likely because" would probably make more sense.
 * I agree; changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:59, 24 October 2018 (UTC)


 * A "why" tag has been added after the sentence "About 53% of eggs do not hatch", which should be dealt with.
 * This has been dealt with. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 11:04, 26 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Support - looks fine to me now. FunkMonk (talk) 15:17, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Tony1
1a: I reviewed this not long ago, right? Hmmm ... the lead is still faulty.
 * "there are two black breast bands on the breast"—do we really need "breast" twice? And there's a third two seconds later, awkwardly making est est.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:28, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * This is not a good sentence: "It is seen year-round in the southern half of its breeding range, and the subspecies C. v. ternominatus is likely resident to the West Indies and C. v. peruvianus inhabits Peru and areas of the surrounding countries throughout the year." and and and trips us up. Have you thought of creating two sort-of sentences using a semicolon? I can't digest it. And "likely" (meaning "probably"), an Americanism I've never been happy with in formal prose. Why? Because it creates a grammatical fork ("is likely to?") that has to be disambiguating shortly after.
 * Done. I don't really understand your reasoning for not liking "likely", but I've changed it anyways. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:28, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Can you ditch the "However-comma" and replace with simple "But ..."?
 * I've done that for its first occurrence in the lead, but not for the second, as "but" occurs shortly after. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:28, 17 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Any chance of avoiding our need to hit the link to "nominate"? ... by (glossing) it?
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)

So, looking through, it's much better than it was. Probably good enough for FA this time, in prose. Possible to use range dashes for numerals? "2 to 6 °C (36 to 43 °F)" -> "2–6 °C (36–43 °F)" ... simpler to read. Tony (talk)  06:09, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I personally prefer using "to" for consistency. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 00:53, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
 * I agree that one of the "breast" is redundant in the forth sentence. --Boothsift (talk) 05:33, 17 October 2018 (UTC)

Support Comments from Jim
I'm short of time, so just few points for starters Read through nowJimfbleak -  talk to me?  16:04, 22 October 2018 (UTC)


 * What about its parasites? No mention at all in your article: Jackson, B., J. Jackson. 2000. "Killdeer (Charadrius vociferus)" pp. 1-28 in A Poole, F Gill, eds. The Birds of North America, Vol. 517. apparently claims it hosts at least 13 species (I don't have access)
 * I finally found the paper on it; added some information. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:20, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * According to a 1999 mitochondrial DNA study, the killdeer is closely related to the rufous-chested, and semipalmated plover, and the black-fronted and hooded dotterel—this concerns me. Two species from other genera are considered to be closest relatives, rather than others in its own genus, notably common ringed plover, itself the closest relative of semipalmated. I can't access the full reference, but I note that it's nearly 20 years old
 * Removed; I personally did have a few reservations about this (it doesn't even include the whole genus!), so I've removed it. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:54, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The female's mask and breast bands are generally more brown than those of the male.—that's not quite what the source says. HBW has "tends to have", which is much less positive than your statement implies. Hayman, Marchant and Prater 1988 p. 287 has "sexing is not usually possible, but some breeding females show much brown admixed with the black on the face". Non-breeding males also often have some brown in the plumage, so I'd definitely hesitate to sex birds in that plumage
 * Changed to "tend to be". RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:51, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * There are three subspecies, including the nominate .—clunky here, why not just leave at There are three subspecies and then later have The nominate (originally described population) subspecies of this plover breeds from southeastern Alaska and southern Canada to Mexico, which clarifies what is currently an incorrect statement.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The killdeer winters from its resident range south to Central America—should be the North American breeders winter from their resident range south to Central America
 * Changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * The killdeer was described in 1758 by Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus as Charadrius vociferus in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae;[2] this name has not been changed—clunky, try The killdeer was described in 1758 by Swedish naturalist Carl Linnaeus as in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae as Charadrius vociferus, its current name
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:54, 27 October 2018 (UTC)


 * About 53% of eggs do not hatch—as it says, why not?
 * Specified. R ileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:44, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * range of about 26.3 million kilometres (16.3 mi)—you are using a linear instead of area measure for the range, should be sq km and sq mi, also I think that 26.3 million kilometres is a tad more than 16.3 mi!!
 * Fixed both. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:54, 25 October 2018 (UTC)


 * Average/maximum life span, survival rates etc?
 * I found the maximum life span; by the way, this site I just found seems to be really useful (I found the paper I used through this), if you didn't already know about it. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 23:42, 29 October 2018 (UTC)
 * RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう, I wasn't aware of that, it looks useful. In practice, I usually write about species with a presence in Europe, where the Euring database does the job, but I guessed that there must be something out there for other regions. Anyway, that's my last point dealt with, so changing to support above Jimfbleak - talk to me?  07:25, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Support Comments from Tim riley
I'll be back with more detailed comments shortly, I hope, but meanwhile I am wondering what variety of English the article is intended to be in. It seems mostly to be in BrE (behaviour, centimetres, coloured, metres, colour, millimetres) but some AmE spellings pop up here and there (southeastern, defense, feces).  Tim riley  talk   11:53, 1 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Yeah, it's mostly in British English. I've changed defense and feces now, but "southeastern"? RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 19:50, 4 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I'd hyphenate "south-eastern" etc, but there's nothing wrong with "southeastern" if you prefer it.  Tim riley  talk   18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Comments, as promised. First an apology. I ought to have made it clear in my passing remark, above, that given the habitat of these birds, AmE would seem to me to be the logical choice. I don't think it's mandatory, though, and if you prefer BrE I doubt if anyone will object. Here are a few general comments, down to the end of the "Habitat and distribution" section:
 * Lead
 * "Its upperparts are mostly brown with rufous fringes" – I could make a fair guess at what upperparts are, but rufous could do with a link too, I think.
 * Linked. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "The belly and the rest of the breast is white" – singular verb with plural nouns.
 * Fixed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "resident to the West Indies" – is that a technical term? Ordinarily "resident in" would be expected.
 * I'm not sure, to be honest. It just means that it stays there year round. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)
 * I think "resident in" would be right in that case.  Tim riley  talk   18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * It sounds so weird to me, but I've looked it up, and it seems you're right; changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 12:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "West Indies" – if you're going to link (which I'm not sure is needed) you should link at first, not second, mention.
 * Linked at first mention. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "fledge" – might be helpful to link? Borderline, perhaps.
 * I'd say it's probably better to link than not. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Description
 * "lores" – definitely could do with a link, I'd say.
 * linked. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:10, 7 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "The killdeer also has a white collar that is black on its upper border" – I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean a white collar with a black upper border?
 * Yep; changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)


 * "more pale and grey" – "paler and greyer"?
 * Changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 18:38, 9 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Habitat and distribution
 * "very locally south to Panama" – I'm not quite certain what this means. Is it that breeding is mostly in the first three countries but is occasionally known in Panama too?
 * It means that it breeds south to Panama, but not as widespread as it usually is found. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 21:38, 7 November 2018 (UTC)
 * You could make this clearer, I think. Something like "with some less widespread grounds further south, in Panama".  Tim riley  talk   18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 12:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

More to come. –  Tim riley  talk   12:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)


 * Tim, just picking up on the variety of English point you made earlier, there are eight or nine English-speaking countries in the Caribbean part of the killdeer's breeding range that use BE, so it's just as appropriate as AE for this species, and the latter is certainly not necessary Jimfbleak - talk to me?  13:14, 5 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you, Jim. Point taken.  Tim riley  talk   18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)

Resuming
 * Breeding
 * Next-to-last sentence: "It has" – means the bird, not the breeding, I infer. Best make it specific.
 * Changed. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 12:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I don't know if it's because it's Friday night and I'm accordingly cheerful, but although there are quite a few drafting points I'd prefer written differently I don't think I need single them out, let alone ask for changes. The repeated use of "likely" instead of "probably" seems unidiomatic to an elderly BrEng user, but the meaning is clear, and the prose flows well enough.

I know nothing of ornithology, but as a layman I find the sourcing impressively wide and (many JSTOR refs – always a good sign) evidently authoritative. The prose is clear, and the illustrations splendid. As the coverage of the topic seems to me thorough, I am happy to support.  Tim riley  talk   18:58, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Thanks! RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 12:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Image review

 * File:Killdeer.jpg: source link is dead. Same with Charadrius_vociferus.ogg. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:20, 10 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Found the archived version of the latter, and switched on Commons to reflect. I could not find the source of the former; however, the copyright seems to check out according to this. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 19:18, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
 * Is the article ok now? RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 13:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)


 * It looks like the gallery of which the former was a part is still on the site, minus this image; the image also appears elsewhere on the web without this attribution. Is anything more known about its provenance? Nikkimaria (talk) 02:45, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I just found it here and here. I'm not too sure about this file, but I'll defer to what you think; if it has to be replaced, I think that this photo would do well. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:46, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Comments and support from Gerda
Thank you for a good-looking article. I read the lead so far, and am mostly happy. It has several brackets, and I am not sure if they are all necessary, please check. The combination of "However" followed by a close "but" (close to the end) is not to my liking ;) More to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:20, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Etymology ...
 * "vox" means "voice".
 * According to this source (found on the wiktionary page for vox), "cry" is an appropriate translation. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * "The common name comes from its frequently heard call." - so much in between that "its" is not immediately clear.
 * Added "killdeer's" before "common name". RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 13:09, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Habitat ...
 * "... and very with some less widespread grounds further south, to Panama" - don't understand "very" in it.
 * Fixed, and shortened overall. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 13:09, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Got to finish feeding, but need sleep. More to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:41, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

Responses ...
 * "The parents use various methods to distract predators during the breeding season." - How about: "Breeding killdeer use various methods to distract predators." or some other way to begin with "The parents".
 * I'd prefer to keep it as it is, as starting the sentence with "Breeding killdeer" seems to say we are only talking about birds who are copulating. If you don't like how it starts with "The parents", I could change it to "The killdeer" (and I would then make the sentence singular).


 * I suggest to first describe the responses, then when they peak.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * "by the killdeer" seems redundant at this point
 * Removed through reordering to accomplish above. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * The voice in the little movie is so much more convincing than in the short sound file, that I'd go for dropping the sound-only.
 * I'd disagree; the voice in the sound file sounds much more like a bird screeching than the one in the video. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:45, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I am not happy with text squeezed between images. Do you have one more, for a little gallery?
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:38, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Fine article, thank you! I guess we don't have any killdeer in art? --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:57, 7 December 2018 (UTC)
 * Thank you! We don't really have anything about it in art, unfortunately. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 22:45, 8 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Thank you, support! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:35, 9 December 2018 (UTC)

Coord note
Source review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:03, 3 December 2018 (UTC)

Basilar source review

 * I take https://www.hbw.com/ is a reliable source?
 * Yep; it's used very frequently on bird FAs. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * I see that some sources sometimes have DOIs and other times don't. I was thinking The Wilson Review especially.
 * I cannot find DOIs for some sources (like The Wilson Review). RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 01:09, 11 December 2018 (UTC)


 * Same for ISSNs.
 * Done. RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 02:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 10:33, 9 December 2018 (UTC)
 * I didn't notice any unreliable or questionable sources.
 * Thanks for the review! RileyBugz 私に叫ぼう私の編集 02:24, 15 December 2018 (UTC)

Spot check
coming up....Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:42, 10 December 2018 (UTC)


 * FN #12 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:48, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * FN #31 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:51, 10 December 2018 (UTC)
 * FN #35 - used twice. material cited and faithful to source. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 11:52, 10 December 2018 (UTC)

ok I'm happy....

-- Laser brain  (talk)  15:02, 16 December 2018 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.