Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Last of the Summer Wine


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 00:46, 9 September 2008.

Last of the Summer Wine

 * Nominator(s): Redfarmer (talk)
 * previous FAC (03:57, 12 June 2008)

I'm nominating this article for featured article because there has been significant improvement since the last FAC including copy editing and peer review and I now feel the article is in much better shape. Redfarmer (talk) 03:11, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

comment Image:LOTSW-title.jpg shouldn't have channel idents Fasach Nua (talk) 08:02, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Copyrighted 	This image is a screenshot of a copyrighted television program or station ID. I don't understand why you think this tag is incorrect. It seems that the tag is used to identify a non-free television screenshot, not something specifically related to a channel. Can you say more? Redfarmer (talk) 14:48, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * It would be good to have the screenshot from the BBC transmission of the show, which is without channel idents Bluap (talk) 22:10, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I have replaced the screenshot with a more recent one, which does not have any DOGs Bluap (talk) 00:44, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

comment The function of Image:Lotsw.jpg can be achieved using the image Image:Last of the Summer Wine Novel.jpg, for minimal use of non free content Fasach Nua (talk) 08:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * No it can't. Image:Last of the Summer Wine Novel.jpg is the front cover of a novel based on the series. Image:Lotsw.jpg is an actual screen shot from the show. If anything, Image:Last of the Summer Wine Novel.jpg should be deleted to minimized use of fair use images. If that is what you think, I will be more than happy to delete Image:Last of the Summer Wine Novel.jpg, as I never thought this was truly necessary to begin with. Redfarmer (talk) 14:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Comments
 * http://www.summer-wine.com/indexbackup2.htm We discussed this at the last FAC. It's... borderline at best in my mind, but pointing it out for other reviewers to be aware of and to decide for themselves. I do note that its not relied on very heavily. This is an informational post only, I'm not actually watchlisting this FAC.
 * Otherwise sources look okay. Links checked out with the link checker tool. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I still contend you're wrong. This was a semi-official news source endorsed by all members of the cast and crew. There's no reason to think this is unreliable other than you thought it looked like a fan site. Bad web design does not indicate the source is unreliable. Redfarmer (talk) 14:45, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * As an occasional FAC contributor, and occasional contributor to this article, I agree that www.summer-wine.com should be allowed as a reliable source. It is the official website of the official fan club for the series - a fan club that frequently collaborates with the producers of the series, and has contact with the cast and crew.  In terms of accuracy, I would suspect that it's more reliable than the newspaper articles used elsewhere in the article.  As Ealdgyth pointed out, it is not relied upon very heavily, so I feel that it is acceptable as a source. Bluap (talk) 00:30, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment isn't the navigation box above references supposed to be at the very bottom? Mm40 (talk | contribs) 16:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Fixed. Thanks for the catch. Redfarmer (talk) 16:56, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Support, all issues resolved. Dabomb87 (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC) Resolved issues, Dabomb87 (talk) 22:51, 7 September 2008 (UTC)Comments from I'll finish out the comments later. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:06, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * " Last of the Summer Wine premiered as an episode of Comedy Playhouse on 4 January 1973, with the first series of episodes following on 12 November 1973." I always find the "with" additive link awkward, try: "Last of the Summer Wine premiered as an episode of Comedy Playhouse on 4 January 1973, and the first series of episodes followed on 12 November 1973."
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "The cast has grown to include a variety of supporting characters, each contributing their own unique subplots to the show and often becoming unwillingly involved in the schemes of the trio." "unique" seems unnecessary coming after the word "own".
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Initially Clarke was not enthusiastic about the BBC's idea for a programme about three old men, and nearly turned the job down. Then he decided that the men should all be unmarried, widowed, or divorced, and either unemployed or retired." The change in ideas from the first sentence to the next is confusing and abrupt.
 * I'm not sure how this can be fixed and maintain the idea they are trying to convey. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * I've added some wording that will hopefully make this idea clearer. Redfarmer (talk) 02:32, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "BBC producers hated this at first, and insisted that it remain a temporary working title, while the cast worried that viewers would not be able to remember the name of the show." "not be able to remember"-->forget.
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "He was asked to play the music faster for more comedic effect, but eventually his original slower version became the well-known theme." "became the well-known theme"—is there a better phrase than that? "Was accepted", maybe?
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Brian Murphy was chosen as Nora Batty's neighbour because of his work on George and Mildred, where he played the hen-pecked husband to a strong-willed woman." The description "hen-pecked" doesn't mean much.
 * Not done. I don't think I could have said it better than Bluap below. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Perhaps an interwiki link to Wiktionary then (for hen-pecked? It's not a commonly used term. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:17, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Butler and Martin were, however, dropped as major characters after the first series." Put "however" before "were", I think the sentence will read better that way.
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 02:50, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * "Last of the Summer Wine is the longest-running comedy programme in Britain." I would think that such a statement needs a reference.
 * Already done. It does have a reference...at the end of the sentence...two references actually... Redfarmer (talk) 02:39, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, didn't see that. Dabomb87 (talk) 12:20, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
 * To comment on one of your points, "hen-pecked" does have a very specific meaning - see [|the wiktionary definition] for an example. Bluap (talk) 02:18, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Dabomb87 (talk) 03:12, 1 September 2008 (UTC) Dabomb87 (talk) 14:22, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Classic redundancy: "In the late 1980s, Roy Clarke wrote a number of novels featuring Compo, Clegg and Seymour."
 * "After the first series of Last of the Summer Wine did not do well in the ratings, the second series proved to be a success and achieved the top ten programmes of the week with two episodes." Unwieldly, achieved is not the right word here.
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Re point above, see if "did not do well in the ratings" can be pruned a bit.
 * Reworded. Redfarmer (talk) 10:35, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Last of the Summer Wine has been nominated numerous times for two different British television industry awards." It's assumed that the two awards are different.
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk)
 * BBC is overlinked.
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * In the infobox: "Sydney Lotterby (1976–1979, 198r2–1983)" I'm assuming the "r" is a typo.
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Additional supporting cast members have been added throughout the run of the show." With the word "added" in the sentence, "additional" is unnecessary.
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "He directed all but two episodes of the third series, though Ray Butt directed 'The Great Boarding House Bathroom Caper' and 'Cheering up Gordon'." The "though" contrastive link is not needed. How about a spaced en dash: "He directed all but two episodes of the third series – Ray Butt directed 'The Great Boarding House Bathroom Caper' and 'Cheering up Gordon'."
 * Fixed. Redfarmer (talk) 01:09, 2 September 2008 (UTC)
 * A spaced en-dash would be preferable for a UK article... Bluap (talk) 19:19, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Sorry, that's what I meant. I use American English, so I don't know the nuances of other variations. Dabomb87 (talk) 19:24, 1 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Would it be possible to combine some of the related short paragraphs in the Other media section? It just makes the paragraphs look fuller. Dabomb87 (talk) 01:22, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 09:36, 6 September 2008 (UTC)))}}

– sgeureka t•c 08:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC) -- Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs ( talk ) 21:43, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Support. I see that this article has gone through multiple stages of review, which has served it well. It was an excellent and enjoyable read. It is thorough, very well-cited and well-written. I just went through and fixed up the three fair-use images used so things are a bit more clear on the image pages. Other than that, everything else was fine. Nice work. Cirt (talk) 07:49, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments (these are more nitpicky suggestions than oppose-worthy criticism, but I'd like to finish copyediting the article before giving my wholeheart support)
 * "and a behind the scenes look at production" - or should it be "and a behind-the-scenes look at production" (I can't tell, see WP:HYPHEN). Or you could simply use the word "backstage".
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I noticed a few quotation mark usages that are not logical quotations (WP:PUNCT), e.g. "Getting Sam Home," (it should be "Getting Sam Home",). I fixed some of them but you should check again.
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Does a film feature or did a film feature (see Episodes section, maybe elsewhere)? I usually use the former style as a film never ceases to feature something, but a case could be made for films that aired once and haven't re-aired and haven't been released on DVD.
 * I think the tense here is appropriate but will change if others feel it is inappropriate. Redfarmer (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * This is something I will always have difficulty with as a non-native speaker, but is it "the trio explore" or "the trio explores"? Google hits suggest the singular should be used, but this may be just an AE/BE thing.
 * I think the singular is appropriate here as there is only one trio. If I'm wrong, someone correct me and I'll correct this. Redfarmer (talk) 00:14, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comments, leaning support, just a few things:
 * "...joined the cast as the quirky war veteran Foggy when Bates left in 1976 after two series. The three never seem to grow up... " Two series? or two seasons? Also, what three are we talking about; Bates included or the newcomer?
 * In Britain, television is divided into series rather than seasons. It's purely a cultural thing. Fixed the confusion about the three. Redfarmer (talk) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Other noted guests on the series have..." just merge this as it's a lone sentence standing in for a paragraph.
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "Last of the Summer Wine focuses on a trio of older men and their youthful antics." I feel like this is just repetition and clunky, given its been stated earlier in the body.
 * This was specifically added in response to comments from the last candidacy. Not all the information is stated earlier. The text in the lead focuses only on the original, most famous, and current trios, and the person making the comment felt that expansion was necessary to give the full gist of who has been on the show. Plus, the user felt that it helped remind people who are not regular viewers of the show who the main characters are. If there is still felt a need for this change, I would be happy to make changes. Redfarmer (talk) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * "In 1981, "Whoops" gained 17 million viewers and was beaten only by Coronation Street for the number one spot." Perhaps it should be stated "Whoops" is the 1981 special? The reader has to make the connection.
 * Done. Redfarmer (talk) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Change the british spelling to american throughout (I kid :P)
 * Believe me, as a native American speaker, it would have been much easier to do it in English. hehe Redfarmer (talk) 00:05, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.