Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Lise Meitner/archive1

Lise Meitner

 * Nominator(s): Hawkeye7   (discuss)  19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC) and

This article is about Lise Meitner, the Austrian physicist who was the co-discover of the element protactinium and nuclear fission. She spent much of her scientific career in Berlin, Germany, where she was a physics professor and a department head at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. She fled to Sweden after Austria was absorbed into Germany in 1938. Hawkeye7  (discuss)  19:59, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

Image review


 * Suggest adding alt text


 * File:Lise_Meitner_(1878-1968),_lecturing_at_Catholic_University,_Washington,_D.C.,_1946.jpg: is a more specific tag available? Ditto File:Lise_Meitner_standing_at_meeting_with_Arthur_H._Compton_and_Katherine_Cornell.jpg
 * The originals are at and . Donated to the Smithsonian by Otto Hahn's biographer. No known copyright restrictions. We could use Template:PD-USGov-SI?  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Not sure we can - those links indicate usage restrictions. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Maybe this one File:Lise Meitner (1878–1968) 1953 OeNB USIS 2955727.jpg can be used as a lead photo? It's of better resolution, and the copyright looks ok. Artem.G (talk) 20:53, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * just noticed that it's Hawkeye who uploaded high res version :) Artem.G (talk) 20:55, 7 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Lise_Meitner12.jpg: source link is dead; when and where was this first published and what is the author's date of death? Ditto File:Otto_Hahn_und_Lise_Meitner.jpg
 * Author is unknown. Image was created in 1906. A copy is in Churchill College, England. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, so retagging needed. What is the first known publication? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not know when they were first published, but they are in Hahn's 1962 biography. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:30, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

Nikkimaria (talk) 01:38, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is any info provided there on previous publication? If no, the current tag is lacking evidence. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Berliner_Physiker_u_Chemiker_1920.jpg needs a US tag and author date of death
 * Added URAA tag. Author unknown. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * When and where was this first published? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:46, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I do not know first publication but it is in Hahn's 1962 book. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  20:33, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Hahn_and_Meitner_in_1912.jpg: when and where was this first published?
 * In a commemorative brochure for the opening of the KWI in 1912. A copy was in Otto Hahn's papers, and is now in the Smithsonian. The Max Planck also has a copy. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * File:Chemist_Lise_Meitner_with_students.jpg: the source seems to indicate this is not a NRC work?
 * Source says "Courtesy of Bryn Mawr College" via the NRC. Has a CC 2.0 licence. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  03:35, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I have switched the lead image to a new one I found in the Library of Congress. Hawkeye7  (discuss)  20:01, 9 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Adding: The liquid drop model image is causing layout issues on my screen. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:34, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Wolverine
I'll drop some comments pretty soon. Wolverine XI  ( talk to me ) 14:48, 3 July 2024 (UTC)


 * En dash
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Replace Catholic Christianity with Catholicism
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "A" should be "the", since we are specific here.
 * Corrected. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The" before colours
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Grammar
 * Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm not sure about "contagious" here, and it should be "about" rather than "of"
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The" is not needed
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Image caption is confusing
 * Looks fine to me. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Should radiations be singular?
 * Might as well. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why is chemistry capitalized?
 * It is the proper name of the institute. There were several of them, including a KWI for Physical Chemistry. See Kaiser Wilhelm Society for details. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is this %?
 * MOS:PERCENT: "The body of non-scientific/​non-technical articles may use either the % symbol or the word(s) percent (American English) or per cent (British English)"
 * Colon should be a full stop
 * Corrected. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Should be "at"
 * I think "in" is correct. He was incarcerated there. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:11, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Support -- My comments are so minor that you already have my support. Well done! When all is done, I'd appreciate a review of the narwhal FAC. Thanks, Wolverine XI   ( talk to me ) 15:27, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

Prose review by Generalissima

 * You bold Elise Meitner in the Early years section, but you already mention this name in the lede - it should probably just be bolded there.
 * Yes. Emboldened as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I'm slightly unclear what "advanced education" means in this context. Merely attending college, or becoming academics in their own right?
 * Tertiary education. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think this would make more sense with the clauses reversed, and moved after the following sentence; this way, it'd flow naturally into the "only career available" part.
 * Good idea. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Some context on what either her masters or doctoral theses were about could be interesting.
 * The title translations are mine. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Circumspect" seems like a bit of an obscure word here. Also "egalitarian" is a bit confusing - I know we're talking about how Hahn drank a lot of Respect Women Juice, but it's phrased confusingly in this portion.
 * Germany was very formal society at the time. Oppenheimer, for example, once made the mistake of addressing Arnold Sommerfeld as "Professor" instead of "Geheimrat". Removed. I need to strike the right note here. For a man of his time, Hahn was progressive in his attitudes towards women. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it might be best to remove the "since her father had died" clause. Maybe split it up; "Meitner may have entered financial difficulties after the death of her father in 1910. Possibly due to this, Planck appointed her..."
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * You reference prices in marks a lot, but a modern reader has no context. Is there a way we can have conversions? There's likely a template for the mark. (Tho these might be best as efns after each quote rather than as in-line text)
 * I don't know how to do this. I will ask and see in anyone else does. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * showed me how, so added currency conversions to euros. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  04:22, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "fortuitous" is somewhat vague, since it can either mean "by chance" or "fortunately". Just using fortunately would be a lot clearer in this context.

That's all for now. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:23, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Might be good to wikilink Radium.
 * linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This isn't really a prose thing, but I notice a paucity of images in the middle sections. The diagram of the Auger effect might be good at the beginning of the Beta Radiation section. More importantly, there's gotta be something that fits for the Nazi Germany, Transmutation, and Nobel Prize for nuclear fission sections, right?
 * Added Auger effect diagram. Suggestions welcome. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I would love to be able to use this image Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The exhibition table being left-aligned creates a weird break in the text in combination with the massive Frisch quote. Might be better to right-align it.
 * Moreover; the Frisch quote is nice, but it is massive. Could there be a way to pare it down a bit more with a (...) or two?
 * Pared it down. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The bust of Meitner image is a bit low-res and hard to make out. What about "file:Lise Meitner Denkmal vor dem Lise-Meitner-Wohnheim in Kaiserslautern2.jpg"? Bit more photogenic.
 * Switched images as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  05:41, 5 July 2024 (UTC)


 * These changes look great! Happy to Support. Generalissima (talk) (it/she) 03:45, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Comments by TompaDompa
This looks interesting. I'll try to find the time to review it in the next few days. As an initial comment, "what was now Nazi Germany" in the WP:LEAD would make more sense to me as "what was by then Nazi Germany". TompaDompa (talk) 03:35, 7 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Re-worded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * General comments
 * There are quite a few places where I think the article would benefit from being more clear and explicit about the geography and geopolitics. Those conditions, especially during the pre-World War I period, will only become more unfamiliar to readers as time goes on, so I think it important to future-proof the article, as it were. I've made a number of specific comments about this below.


 * Lead
 * "the development of atomic bombs during World War II, and subsequently other nuclear weapons" – atomic bomb is a redirect to nuclear weapon, so this is in effect the same link twice in close succession.
 * Re-worded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Early years
 * "Meitner was born Elise Meitner [...]" – any particular reason to not just write "Elise Meitner was born [...]"? That's the usual approach.
 * Yes, that is my usual pro forma. phrased it that way in 2016. Switched to the usual form.  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Her father was a confirmed freethinker" – "confirmed"?
 * Deleted "confirmed". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Education
 * "Meitner's earliest research began at age eight, when she kept a notebook of her records underneath her pillow." – I can't say I quite understand what this is saying.
 * That she was interested in science at an early age. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, but what is meant by "a notebook of her records" (and how it relates to research) is not clear to me. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Re-worded to make the point clearer. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "She completed her final year of school in 1892 [...] In 1899, Meitner began taking private lessons with two other young women, cramming the missing eight years of secondary education into just two." – eight missing years?
 * Yes, it was not that much. Deleted "eight". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "an article on optics by Lord Rayleigh that detailed an experiment that produced results that Rayleigh had been unable to explain" – a bit choppy with three instances of "that" so close together, but this is really a nitpick.
 * Re-worded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Friedrich Wilhelm University
 * Max Planck and Beta particle are both linked twice in this section, and both isotope and isotopes (the latter a redirect to the former) appear.
 * Unlinked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Meitner went to the Friedrich Wilhelm University" – here we should probably state where this was located geographically. She moved to a different country, after all.
 * Added "in Berlin". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Planck invited her to his home, and allowed her to attend his lectures, which was an unusual gesture by Planck, who was on record as opposing the admission of women to universities in general, but he was willing to admit that there was the occasional exception; apparently he recognised Meitner as one of the exceptions." – this sentence does not "flow" particularly well and could probably be improved by copyediting (possibly by splitting the sentence).
 * Split sentence. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "She became friends with Planck's twin daughters Emma and Grete" – I might indicate something about their age here. Easiest would probably be to state the year they were born.
 * In 1889. Added this. Both died in childbirth, Grete in 1917 and Emma in 1919. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "(In fact, they were isotopes of known elements, but the concept of an isotope, along with the term, was only propounded by Frederick Soddy in 1913.)" – entire sentences in parentheses is rarely the best approach, and I don't think this is one of the exceptions.
 * Moved to a footnote Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "propounded" is a conspicuously unusual word. Plainer language such as "put forth" would be better.
 * I think "propounded" works better. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "she noted his informal and approachable manner" – is "noted" the right/best word to use here?
 * I think so. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "In Montreal, Hahn had become accustomed to collaboration with physicists, including at least one woman, Harriet Brooks." – this is really minor tinkering, but I think this would be better if the second comma were replaced with "stronger" stronger punctuation (I would suggest an em dash).
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I meant "In Montreal, Hahn had become accustomed to collaboration with physicists—including at least one woman, Harriet Brooks." TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Women were not yet admitted to universities in Prussia." – Germany (or the German Empire) has not yet been mentioned. Considering that, I would gloss this as "the German state of Prussia".
 * Prussia didn't become a state until 1918. At the time it was the Kingdom of Prussia. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Sure, but whether the states of the German Empire were called Kingdoms, Duchies, or something else, the salient point is that they were constituent parts of the overarching German polity, which was what I was going for here. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Okay, my German gets in the way here. Made this point. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  00:28, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is now "the German state of Kingdom of Prussia", which should probably either be "[...] of Prussia" of "[...] of the Kingdom of Prussia". TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Added missing adjective. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:03, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "radioactive recoil, in which a daughter nucleus is forcefully ejected from its matrix as it recoils at the moment of decay" – this is rather technical. In order to make it more accessible, I would link daughter nucleus and provide either an appropriate link for "matrix" or explain it in some other way.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Meitner was particularly interested in beta radiation. By this time, they were known to be electrons." – I'm guessing "they" here is a result of the preceding sentence previously using "beta particles", but it doesn't work with "beta radiation", and using "radiation" rather than "particles" is the right call.
 * Changed to "beta particles" Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry
 * "the newly founded Kaiser Wilhelm Institute (KWI) for Chemistry" – again, it would probably be a good idea to indicate the geographical location for this.
 * Added "in Berlin". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Meitner received an attractive offer of an academic position in Prague" – I would try to find some way to note that Prague was then part of Austria-Hungary (the significance being that she would have left Germany for her home country if she had accepted the offer).
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Fischer arranged for her salary to be doubled to 3,000 marks" – is there any particular reason her previous salary did not get a mention prior to this point? The paragraph does note that she held "the same rank as Hahn (although her salary was still less)".
 * It was raised over time. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I see. TompaDompa (talk) 20:04, 17 July 2024 (UTC)


 * World War I and the discovery of protactinium
 * Actinium being element 89 is rather important context that is missing here.
 * "the search for the mother isotope of actinium. According to the radioactive displacement law of Fajans and Soddy, this had to be an isotope of the undiscovered element 91" – I'm confused. They knew about beta decay, and the article has already stated that Hahn and Meitner made money off of radium-228 ("mesothorium"), which beta decays to actinium (as do other isotopes of radium, for that matter). Why did they assume the mother isotope had to be an alpha emitter?
 * Presumably they detected alpha radiation. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "However, the isotope they had found was a beta emitter, and therefore could not be the mother isotope of actinium." – I understand why beta decay of element 91 cannot produce element 89, but I don't think this is clear to the average reader.
 * "In 1914 Hahn and Meitner developed a new technique for separating the tantalum group from pitchblende, which they hoped would speed the isolation of the new isotope." – this is jumping back in time a bit, so I would say that they had done so.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "not only Hahn but most of the students, laboratory assistants and technicians had been called up" – I gather this is "called up" in the sense of "summoned to serve in the armed forces" as opposed to "personally selected (for some particular purpose more generally)". Maybe I'm an outlier, but I come across this phrase more frequently in the latter sense than in the former, and so think this should be rephrased somewhat to eliminate ambiguity/lack of clarity.
 * As a military historian, I have never seen it used in that sense. Clarified. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * It is, from what I can gather, rather common in sports. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "they devised a series of indicator tests to eliminate other known alpha emitters. The only known ones with similar chemical behaviour were lead-210 (which decays to alpha emitter polonium-210) and thorium-230" – this doesn't quite work. I might suggest replacing the first "alpha emitters" with "sources of alpha [particles/radiation]". I would also add "via bismuth-210" to the parenthetical statement.
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The connection to uranium remained a mystery, as neither of the known isotopes of uranium decayed into protactinium." – I don't think it's clear why a connection to uranium should be expected in the first place? I might also note which those known isotopes of uranium were.
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "the mother isotope, uranium-235" – technically uranium-235 is the grandmother isotope of protactinium(-231), no?
 * Yes. Corrected. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "uranium-235, was discovered in 1929" – according to the linked article, it was discovered in 1935. Which is wrong?
 * The source says it was in 1929. The linked article has no sources, but I found Dempster's 1935 Nature article. Changed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Beta radiation
 * "At a conference in 1937, Meitner shares the front row with (left to right) Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg, Wolfgang Pauli, Otto Stern and Rudolf Ladenburg; Hilde Levi is the only other woman in the room." – there are seven people in the front row, so one name is missing. Who is sitting closest to the camera? I would also add indicate Levi's position in the room in the caption.
 * The image does not identify him. Tweaked caption. I would have thought Levi stood out, but she is at the back next to Mark Oliphant. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The unidentified man is the one at the very end (if nothing else, our article on Rudolf Ladenburg uses a cropped version of this very image, showing the man sitting next to Meitner), right? In that case, the current "[...] Otto Stern, an unidentified man and Rudolf Ladenburg" should be ""[...] Otto Stern, Rudolf Ladenburg, and an unidentified man".Levi stands out okay in the full-size image, but not so much in miniature versions that one may see on this article under typical viewing conditions (screen size and resolution, and so on). I also think it says something that Meitner is in the front row while Levi is furthest back, and that the caption should note this. TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I have seen some cases where Meitner is described as the only woman in the room. And, for example, deliberately crops the image so she is. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:32, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Meitner was so stunned by this result" – it is not clear from this whether she was stunned that it appeared to match or that it didn't quite match.
 * Reworded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "It appeared that the law of conservation of energy did not hold for beta decay" – it is not obvious how this conclusion follows from what was stated before.
 * Tried to make this clearer. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I think it works now, assuming I have understood it correctly—the difference between the spectrum's measured energy and the disintegration energy was viewed as a real difference (as opposed to being within the expected margin of error for the setup), meaning there was an unexplained "loss" of energy. Did I get that right? TompaDompa (talk) 18:48, 18 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Yes, but it is the implication of this that bothered the physicists. Quantum theory hold that the electrons can only have discrete energy states. How then can they not have when ejected? (As an aside: Chadwick conducted this experiment while in an internment camp with a home-made Geiger counter and a tube of toothpaste.) Here, Meitner shows her tenacity as a physicist. This has important results later. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:38, 18 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Nazi Germany
 * "the largest party in the Reichstag (Weimar Republic)" – stray parenthetical disambiguator.
 * Removed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Meitner published exclusively in Naturwissenschaften" – should probably clarify that this is a journal.
 * Clarified. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Transmutation
 * "Irène Curie and Frédéric Joliot irradiated aluminium foil with alpha particles, and found that this results in a short-lived radioactive isotope of phosphorus. They noted that positron emission continued after the neutron emissions ceased." – neutron emissions? Not alpha particle bombardment? It would make perfect sense to me if positron emission continuing after the alpha irradiation ceased was viewed as evidence of radioactivity (as opposed to the bombardment "knocking loose" positrons directly or something), but I can't quite figure out the text as it is, which is why I'm suspecting an error of some kind (or maybe I'm just bad at nuclear physics).
 * You are correct. Re-worded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Escape from Germany
 * "On 1 August she took the train to Stockholm, where she was met at Göteborg station by Eva von Bahr." – this phrasing makes it sound like she was met by von Bahr at Göteborg station in Stockholm, which is of course nonsensical. Did she take the Stockholm-bound train and disembark at Göteborg? Or did she take the train to Stockholm and was joined from Göteborg by von Bahr? The former sounds much more likely as Kungälv, where they went next, is much closer to Göteborg than to Stockholm.
 * The former. Re-worded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "on 9 November" – WP:EASTEREGG.
 * removed link. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "the results of the experiments, particularly the supposed discovery of isomers of radium" – the what now? Unless I've missed something major, this has not been mentioned previously.
 * More details in the main article. Alluded to above in the final paragraph on transmutation. Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Nuclear fission
 * "Hahn and Strassmann isolated the three radium isotopes" – as above: which? Also, is "isotopes" here and "isomers" in the preceding section correct, or should they match?
 * Isotopes is correct here. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "the liquid-drop model of the nucleus" – at present, this is a WP:REDLINK. That's not necessarily a problem, but I note that liquid-drop model redirects to semi-empirical mass formula, so you want to tweak the link or create a redirect (or not—redlinks are fine).
 * Corrected the link. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Hahn had mistakenly believed that the atomic masses had to add up to 239 rather than the atomic numbers adding up to 92, and thought it was masurium (technetium), and so did not check for it: + n →  +  + some n" – surely that should be uranium-238 on the left-hand side rather than uranium-235, if the atomic mass should add up to be 239?
 * Tweaked the formula by removing "235". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Nobel Prize for nuclear fission
 * I don't think this heading really works. It sticks out a bit from the other (which it wouldn't if it were plain "Nobel Prize"), but more importantly it belies that Meitner did not receive the Nobel Prize. I don't have any good alternative suggestion right now, however.
 * Changed to "Nobel Prize"
 * "On 15 November 1945, the Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences announced that Hahn had been awarded the 1944 Nobel Prize in Chemistry" – this looks like an error, but it isn't one. I would definitely add an explanatory footnote about the one-year delay.
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The five-member physics committee included Manne Siegbahn, his former student Erik Hulthén, the professor of experimental physics at Uppsala University, and Axel Lindh, who eventually succeeded Hulthén." – if that's three people, the first and third commas need to be semicolons.
 * Added sme-colons. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner" – that their relationship was poor came as news to me, as there was not really anything obvious above to suggest so—or did I miss it?
 * It is the first mention. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner was a factor here, as was the bias towards experimental rather than theoretical physics (a bias that did not help Chien-Shiung Wu when she was omitted from the Nobel Prize for her experimental work and the prize awarded to two men for their theoretical work)." - this borders on snide. The intended meaning is clearly that the exclusion was due to bias against women, the implicit (but unsubtle) argument being that even a bias in favour of a particular subfield was later not enough for a woman to be awarded. If the accusation of gender bias is attributable to appropriate sources, make it explicitly and attribute it to those sources. If it is not, remove the implicit one. If the mention of Chien-Shiung Wu being omitted from the Nobel Prize is retained, the year should be given.
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Hahn's receipt of a Nobel Prize was long expected." – the word "receipt" stands out to me as I almost never encounter it in any other sense than, well, receipt. I would suggest rephrasing here.
 * Tightened text. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This section feels quite a bit like it was written to be later in the article than it currently is, beginning with "Despite the many honours that Meitner received in her lifetime" (as though referring back to the "Awards and honours" section), discussing the poor relationship between Siegbahn and Meitner (which is mentioned in the following section, "Later life", even if only briefly), and just generally covering events that happened at a later point in time than the first couple of paragraphs of the following section. This is, I think, a rather serious issue with the structure of the article at present. My suggestion would be to remove this section, add the Nobel Prize stuff in its proper chronological place in the following section in a "just the facts" manner, and move the analysis of the Nobel Prize stuff to the last section (which could optionally be renamed "Legacy" or something).
 * Changed as suggested. (But it was never intended to be later in the article.) Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Later life
 * "Jutz's boss, Gottfried Bermann had escaped to Sweden" – zero or two commas would work. One does not.
 * Added comma. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Her sister Gisela and brother-in-law Karl Lion moved to England, Meitner also considered moving to Britain." – a comma is not the right punctuation here.
 * Reworded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Siegbahn's obstruction of Meitner's Nobel Prize" – the description of this turn of events earlier in the article does not really seem to fit the term "obstruction".
 * Reworded. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The intention was that Meitner would have the salary and title of a "research professor"—one without teaching duties." – does the source say anything about whether having or not having teaching duties would be seen as preferable here?
 * I thought all professors aspired to not teach. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "The professorship fell through when the Minister for Education, Tage Erlander, unexpectedly became the Prime Minister of Sweden" – I would state the year.
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "she applied magic numbers to nuclear fission" – I daresay both the meaning and significance of this will be unclear to most readers.
 * They can read the article. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)


 * Awards and honours
 * Marie Curie, German Physical Society, and Free University of Berlin are all linked twice in this section.
 * Removed duplicate links. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Four years later she was elected a Foreign Member of the Royal Society." – something of an WP:EASTEREGG.
 * Altered link Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "In 2000, the European Physical Society established the biannual "Lise Meitner Prize"" – there exists a Lise Meitner Prize article, and going by that article it should be "biennial" rather than "biannual".
 * Changed as suggested, linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The list of items named after Meitner appears to largely be cited to sources on the items themselves, rather than sources on Meitner or sources on items named after Meitner. This is not ideal from a WP:PROPORTION perspective. How is the relative importance of the different items (compared to each other) assessed to make sure the weight is due? Likewise, how is the relative importance of this aspect of the overall topic (Lise Meitner) compared to other aspects assessed to make sure the weight is due? From a WP:PROPORTION perspective, this is the equivalent of the much-maligned (and now deprecated) practice of sourcing "In popular culture" sections to primary sources.
 * Each source is authoritative, and details that the item was named after Lise Meitner. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  22:22, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Ping. TompaDompa (talk) 19:13, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Matarisvan
Hi, my comments: A fine article overall, only the source formatting seems to be a bit off. Matarisvan (talk) 17:05, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Provide a translation from German for her thesis in the infobox, as done in the body?
 * Provided. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Could we add Phillip Meitner in the infobox?
 * Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to freethinker (freethought)?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Isn't the 1906 portrait of Meitner creating a WP:SANDWICH with the infobox? Consider moving it down a little?
 * Moved image down. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Gloss Matura in one or two words per NOFORCELINK?
 * Glssed. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Maxwell Formula (probably Maxwell's equations)?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Is the link to Montreal necessary?
 * deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "and settled as radioactive dust": "had settled"?
 * Don't see the need, but changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Austrian Army (Imperial-Royal Landwehr)?
 * That would be incorrect. Hahn served in the Prussian Landwehr. He was German; Meitner was Austrian. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to tantalum?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to radium-226?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "proposed of the nucleus": remove the "proposed"?
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to technetium?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Geiger counter?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to George de Hevesy?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to American Physical Society and Physics Today?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Oskar Klein?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Erwin Schrödinger?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Link to Max Perutz?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Provide translated titles and journal names for refs #16, #18, #42, #55, #146, Stolz 1989?
 * Provided. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Provide an archive url for ref #168?
 * Not possible, I'm afraid. Substituted a new reference. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Provide a link for ref #136?
 * Don't have one. switched to another source.
 * In the biblio, link to Nicholas Dawidoff, Willy Ley?
 * Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Provide publication locations for Sexl and Hardy 2002, Stolz 1989?
 * Provided. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:16, 9 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Why have we not used the sources in the Further Reading section in the article? If they don't have anything unique, I would suggest removing them; if they do, then you can always include them in the biblio and cite them.

Edwininlondon
I'm pleased to see an article about a female scientist here, thank you for such an excellent effort. With the caveat that I am not a native speaker, here are some comments. Feel free to ignore. That's all I have on prose. I will look at other aspects later today. Edwininlondon (talk) 08:54, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * The repetition of her name in bold is not great. I know of no specific guideline but in earlier FAs I have applied the use of " to introduce the commonly used first name. For example Nancy Sophie Cornélie "Corry" Tendeloo. So could Elise "Lise" Meitner be an option?
 * There is a specific guideline. MOS:BOLD: "Boldface is often applied to the first occurrence of the article's title word or phrase in the lead. This is also done at the occurrence of a term (commonly a synonym in the lead) that redirects to the article or one of its subsections, whether the term appears in the lead or not"  Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I avoided the construct 'Elise "Lise" Meitner' because that would give the impression that it was a nickname, and it was not. Note that she signed her papers "Dr. Lise Meitner". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * who was one of those responsible for the discovery of the element protactinium and the discovery of nuclear fission --> who was instrumental in the discovery of protactinium and nuclear fission
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * department head at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute for Chemistry there --> can we drop "there"?
 * Another editor wanted it clarified that the KWI was in Berlin.
 * to be with other family members --> to be with her family members, or, perhaps: to be with family members
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * She also adopted the shortened name "Lise" --> is it known when?
 * Not known. Her matura was recorded under the name Elise Meitner. "Lise's name also changed slightly from its original Elise. In Berlin such things might have caused a flurry of paperwork; in Vienna it made no difference." Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * She completed her final year of school --> from reading onwards I gather this is not secondary school. Would it not be better to explicitly say primary school here?
 * She went to a high school for girls that went to what in my country would be year 8. This might be consider primary school depending on where the reader is. So it would not be better. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * but women were not allowed to attend public institutions of higher education in Vienna until 1897--> I don't get the "but". And would the list of subjects at school not be better placed with the earlier sentence about final year of school?
 * Re-worded to make this clearer. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * the girls --> at age 23 she is not a girl. And the others were introduced as other young women. So "women" instead of girls
 * She was 22, but point taken. Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Only four out of fourteen girls --> same thing
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * She was particularly inspired by Boltzmann --> to avoid confusion, perhaps professor Boltzmann
 * Changed to "Ludwig Boltzmann". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Examination of a Maxwell Formula" --> "Examination of a Maxwell equation"
 * Sure. Pardon my MilHist German. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * "Thermal Conduction in Inhomogeneous Bodies" --> "Thermal conduction in inhomogeneous bodies"
 * Title, so used title case. German conventions are different. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * she went further and made predictions based on her explanation, and then verified them experimentally --> this seems like a notable event that should be described in a bit more detail: what kind of optics issue are we talking about, what did she predict, how did she verify?
 * Sources do not say; I have the journal reference, but copies are not available online, or in hard copy outside Germany. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Meitner was introduced by Stefan Meyer--> is it known when?
 * In 1906. Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * This led Ernest Rutherford to predict the nuclear atom. She submitted her findings to the Physikalische Zeitschrift on 29 June 1907. --> From this order I infer that Rutherford made the prediction before her publication, and thus that there was some sort of informal communication between them. Is this the case?
 * No; he read her paper. Revered the sentences to make this clearer. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * , and shared her love of music --> because of that comma, I read this with Meitner being the subject of the verb shared. But I guess you meant the twins to be the subject, am I right?
 * Yes. Not sure what can be done here; changed to "Meitner's love of music". Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * During the first years Meitner worked together with Hahn they co-authored three papers in 1908, and six more in 1909 --> During the first two years Meitner worked together with Hahn, they co-authored nine papers: three in 1908, six in 1909
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * physical separation method known as radioactive recoil --> I assume that is the same as atomic recoil, and thus should be linked, right?
 * Yes. Linked. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * discovered two more new isotopes --> which ones specifically?
 * Sigh. Bismuth-211 and Thalium-207. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * For this more pitchblende was required, and --> For this yet more pitchblende was required, but
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * who independently discovered it in 1923 --> when did Meitner discover it?
 * In 1922. Added. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * Vor allem steht ihre chemische Verschiedenheit von allen bisher bekannten Elementen außerhalb jeder Diskussion --> I don't think we need the German here
 * I would prefer to keep it, so the reder knows that I am not misquoting or misrepresenting Hahn. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * at Manne Siegbahn's new Manne Siegbahn Laboratory --> better link label would be at the Manne Siegbahn Laboratory
 * Changed as suggested. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * amiable --> not sure I would use this. I'm sure Sigvard was amiable, but we might need quite a few sources first before we can say this
 * Deleted. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * reached a similar conclusion --> similar to what? + state when he said this
 * Moved this paragraph back where it belonged. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
 * I find it remarkable that Meitner lived so long and did not seem to have suffered any radiation damage. She must have been really careful from the beginning. This is just a thought, no need to act on it.
 * Ditto for Otto Hahn, who also made it to age 89. Hawkeye7   (discuss)  21:36, 21 July 2024 (UTC)