Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Loev (film)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 04:07, 28 July 2017.

Loev (film)

 * Nominator(s): Numerounovedant   Talk  16:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

This article is about an Indian film that was released on Netflix. I am looking for construvtive comments to improve the article. It recently went through a GAR conducted by Aoba47. I would also like to thank Kailash29792 and Ssven2 for their help with the article. Numerounovedant  Talk  16:37, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * Can you tell me (here, not by editing the article) a little bit about the tuberculosis? Although it's probably the leading cause of death in the world among respiratory diseases, it still strikes me as unusual in this case ... depending on what happened, it might need some explaining. - Dank (push to talk) 17:05, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for taking a look Dank. Well, there aren't many details on it, this is the most detailed discussion oh Ganesh's death. I hope this helps. Numerounovedant   Talk  17:26, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Okay thanks ... I've read all the links I can find and they don't talk about it, so I guess we can't in the article. Other than that, I don't have any comments to offer yet. Nice work. - Dank (push to talk) 17:30, 18 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you, looking forward to further comments. Numerounovedant   Talk  17:34, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Comments from Aoba47
 * Not to be too nitpicky, but the ALT text for the infobox image (Pandit and Ganesh embracing in a bed on the film's poster.) reads a little awkwardly, specifically the "on the film's poster" part as it can read like the bed is literally on the poster. I would just remove that part and maybe add in the front of the text something along the lines of "An image of..." to get the same point across.
 * I would clarify in this part from the lead "who share a complicated relationship that takes center stage during a weekend getaway to" what you mean by "a complicated relationship" as that sounds a little too vague for my liking.
 * I still support this, but I am not certain that "complex" is needed in the description as it sounds a little off to me. I will leave this for other reviewers to discuss, but I just wanted to leave a note about this. Aoba47 (talk) 17:32, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * One last thing, I have rephrased the sentence, do you like this version better? Numerounovedant   Talk  18:05, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I think that works better. Thank you for addressing this point. Aoba47 (talk) 18:10, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Do we have any information on how exactly Saria drew from his personal experiences for this film? It is fine if there is not anything out there, but it just seems like a really broad claim without any specific example with it.
 * Not really.
 * That is what I thought, but I just wanted to make sure with you. It is fine as it stands then. Aoba47 (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Again this is very nitpicky but in the following phrase from the lead (Upon initial release), I would say (Upon its initial release) would be more appropriate.
 * I would break up the following sentence into two (The major praise was directed towards the script and the performances of Pandit and Ganesh, and the unconventional and fresh treatment of a taboo subject matter in India.), with a separate sentence for the treatment of the taboo subject matter. Also, this sentence is a little confusing as it never made clear what "taboo subject matter" you are discussing as it is not spelled out in the lead clearly (it can be clearly seen in the infobox image, but the lead skirts around the topic; this goes back to my point about the "complicated relationship" statement).
 * The part about the rape in the "Plot" section still reads very awkwardly to me, and I would suggest looking at that further and revise it more. This part in particular (He violently pressed him beside a wall and starts kissing him, to which Sahil responds initially, but later asks him to stop by saying that "this isn't what he (Jai) wants".) needs work.
 * In this sentence (who brings along his friend (Rishabh Chaddha) to the hotel), does the friend have a name?
 * I am not sure, I'll have to check, but he was never a significant character.
 * Makes sense, I just wanted to double-check. Aoba47 (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * I have a clarification question for the following sentence (As he is walking away into the airport, Jai sends a text message to Sahil saying that he loves him.). How does Sahil respond to the text? Following this sentence, it appears that this is the final mention/part featuring Sahil in the film so I was a little confused by the jump.
 * Actually, I think he's never really shown reading his text. It's more for closure sake (more for the audience I believe).
 * Makes sense, I just wanted to double-check. Aoba47 (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Wonderful job with this article. Once my comments are addressed, I will be more than happy to support this. Good luck with this nomination. Aoba47 (talk) 15:13, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * It would be beneficial to add a date/year to the following sentence rather than "eventually" for clarity (The worldwide rights of the film were eventually acquired by Netflix).
 * There is a citation error for Reference 26.
 * Just wanted to point out that "Scroll.in." was a red link in the References section. It is more than okay to have a red link, but I just wanted to let you know that it was there.
 * Fixed everything/left comments. Thanks, so really appreciate you going through this again. Also, thank you for all the previous help with the article. Numerounovedant   Talk  16:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you for addressing my comments. I support this; good luck with getting this promoted. Aoba47 (talk) 17:31, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Wonderful work with this article. This passes all of the requirements for the image review. The minor issue with the infobox image's ALT text should be covered in my above review. Aoba47 (talk) 16:06, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Image review
 * File:Loev poster.jpg is properly sourced and licensed. All of the information in the non-free media information and use rationale box is completed. ALT text could use some more work, but I have addressed this in my above comments.
 * File:Aditi Rao Hydari and Shiv Pandit at Teacher’s day celebrations (cropped).jpg, File:Mahabaleshwar-scene.jpg, and File:Shiv Pandit at the special screening of Loev (cropped).jpg are all properly source and pulled from Wikimedia Commons. ALT text is well done for all of the images, and they are appropriately used in the section.
 * Thanks for this too. Numerounovedant   Talk  16:46, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Anytime! Aoba47 (talk) 17:34, 19 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Support on prose after these changes (pls review it and see if I have messed anything up or altered meaning). Sorry for taking so long to get to this (I caught a terrible cold, which lasted about two weeks). This looks well written, although I feel the article could do better without some quotes present in production. But other than that I believe it is a nice piece of work. Well done. – FrB.TG (talk) 16:50, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks FrB.TG, I'll see what i can do about the quotes. I'll try and incorporate them into the text more naturally. Also, I hope you are doing better now? Numerounovedant   Talk  15:33, 15 July 2017 (UTC)

Comments from IndianBio
 * I find it a bit strange that we have a picture of Pandit in two sections of the article but no picture of Dhruv Ganesh? Surely Bollywood Hungama has a free image we can use? They are the principal cast so if we include Pandit's image, I believe Ganesh's image is also equally indicative. Please mind that the poster does not give a clear impression of who is who, being a painted imagery.
 * Can you please replace the normal dashses in the reference titles and in the article with the en-dash?
 * I have removed the track list from the Soundtrack section. I am even not sure that the section can be named as soundtrack when no album per definition was released. It was just a single with video.
 * I have made a left-right arrangement of the images as that breaks the monotony of the flow and is recommended.
 * File:Shiv Pandit at the special screening of Loev (cropped).jpg, who is Danish Aslam in relation to this film? I find this image to be completely unnecessary. What does it portray? He's not even mentioned anywhere in the text among the Bollywood personalities attending the premiere.

That's all for now currently. I would very much like to see a spotcheck review for this. — I B  [ Poke  ] 06:19, 14 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed everything IndianBio, hopefully. Numerounovedant   Talk  16:01, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

That'll be all from me. Proof-reading and examining the reliability of sources may be done by any other editors. Kailash29792 (talk)  17:59, 19 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Comments from Kailash
 * Actors need not be linked in the plot as it will border on WP:OVERLINK.
 * Make sure there are sources for all actors in the film so that it complies with WP:FILMCAST.
 * Link UNESCO World Heritage in production section.
 * "In an interview with Manoj Sharma of Pandolin" - what is Pandolin? Anything without a Wiki article must be defined when first mentioned.
 * You could link "road trip film" to "road movie" (I wonder why the article on the genre uses "movie", not "film").
 * "The film's final cut ran for a total of 92 minutes" - you already mentioned early in the article, "With a total runtime of 92 minutes, the film was pitched under the labels of Bombay Berlin Film Productions, and Four Line Films". Omit at least one mention.
 * "another editorial in Rediff.com called it the least bit political" - the author of the article is Aseem Chhabra. Try avoiding cryptic mentions.
 * "While working in the US" - spell it out: United States.
 * "Film critic Subhash K. Jha gave the film four stars" - he has already been introduced and linked in "Themes", so you may de-link him here.
 * "DeepalI Singh of Daily News and Analysis also praised the movie" - say film.
 * Fixed everything Kailash, hopefully. Numerounovedant   Talk  06:45, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Vedant. Upon a second examination, I decided to say a few more things: That's all for now. If there's anything else, you'll know. -- Kailash29792 (talk)  08:17, 20 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I think the film is better described in the lead as a romantic drama (that is the genre listed at IMDb and Rotten Tomatoes). Even Brokeback Mountain is described as such.
 * There is a sentence, "only a core group were aware of the details of the plot, and to the rest of the crew it was a road trip film". It was here that I suggested linking "road trip film" to "road movie".
 * "it stars Shiv Pandit and Dhruv Ganesh". I believe Ganesh comes first in the credits, right? Then his name must come first here too.
 * Is Jasleen Marwah a producer on the film? I don't find that name mentioned anywhere apart from the infobox.
 * Scroll.in's Wiki article has (unfortunately) been deleted, so it may be de-linked. I don't know if it yet passes WP:RS completely, but on the basis of WP:ATTRIBUTEPOV it does. Since Nandini Ramnath (a veteran journalist) has previously written for reliable sources like Livemint and Indian Express, I think this Scroll source should pass RS.
 * I tried accessing the official website, but it redirects to this where it says "This Account Has Been Suspended". Is it the same way for you? If the link really doesn't work, best remove it from the "external links" section.
 * Regarding the addition of "English" in the infobox, Template:Infobox film says, "Only in rare cases of clearly bilingual or multilingual films, enter separate entries with ". I think you can mention in the body of the article that the film, while primarily Hindi, features abundant English dialogue. Nandini Ramnath says the film has "Hindi-infused English dialogue", while IFFK lists its' language as "Hindi-English". In this source (which you have already added), he mentions something about the film's language(s), which you could write about here.
 * Add more categories, including "Indian independent films" (unless you feel it isn't exactly an indie).
 * I have addressed all your comments Kailash. Let me know if there any more concerns. Also, does romantic drama Road from sound too weird? Thanks for your comments, they have helped improve the article a great deal. Numerounovedant   Talk  09:40, 21 July 2017 (UTC)

Here are my final comments. Once they are solved, I will support this FAC:
 * Please consult any admin regarding the usage of "Hinglish" in the infobox. That's not the only language spoken in the film though, right? The characters speak both English and Hindi, don't they? Then the film should have the category "English-language Indian films".
 * There is no article on "overhanging cliff". Please delink or find what you mean to link to.
 * "Rajeev Masand hosted Saria on his talk show" - what is the show's name?
 * Did the film win only one award? Then not only is a table unnecessary, but the "awards and nominations" section could be merged with the "release" section. -- Kailash29792 (talk)  15:28, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed everything, as for the language Kailash, I believe it was mostly hinglish as the characters never truly spoke either of the two.  Numerounovedant   Talk  17:38, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Support, since my comments have been addressed. Although I was surprised by the number of comments made by Ceranthor, I hope they are addressed in some way that will allow this article to pass FAC. -- Kailash29792 (talk)  07:44, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks Kaliash, appreciate the help with the article. Numerounovedant   Talk  09:03, 27 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Comments by 1989
 * There was an error I found that I fixed myself. I couldn't find many errors in the article, so I support its promotion. – 1989 20:17, 23 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Thank you 1989, I appreciate the help. Numerounovedant   Talk  07:15, 24 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Prose Comments from Cerantho
 * Produced by Saria under the label Four Line Films, Arfi Lamba, Katharina Suckale, and Jasleen Marwah, under their company Bombay Berlin Film Productions, - This sentence is very clunky.
 * The programme coincides with the latter's business trip to Mumbai - Not sure program is the word I'd use here
 * The latter resists halfheartedly - I'd just keep out the half-heartedly per WP:EDITORIAL
 * Sahil decides to stay and sits back in the bed unamusingly. - same as above
 * They head back to the hotel room to collect Sahil's belongings - Who is they?
 * Sahil leans on to Jai, but the two do not talk about anything that had happened. - Do you mean leans on? I've never heard of leaning on to someone.
 * Saria said that the screenplay was written out of "deep shame and fear", and on completion was not pitched to any investors, but instead put away into a drawer. - There should be a citation after a direct quote
 * The film stars Shiv Pandit and Dhruv Ganesh; the former came across the film's idea during a casual meeting with Saria, and on much persuasion from Pandit, the latter revealed the script. - Very clunky
 * . However, Ganesh was apprehensive about playing the character, but after initial scepticism he agreed to play the role.[5] Ganesh died of tuberculosis in January 2015, while the film was in post-production.[4] The opening credits in the film's final cut honour his memory.[12] Siddharth Menon and Rishabh J. Chaddha play supporting roles in the film.[13] - The transition from his skepticism to his death to the supporting roles is very, very abrupt and doesn't read smoothly


 * The prose is quite clunky at times, and I think it could use a good copyedit to improve its flow and organization. I will continue to provide some suggestions and copyedits here and there in the meantime, but it may help to make some of the paragraphs have more flow, particularly in the production and plot sections.  ceran  thor 14:21, 26 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Fixed everything, as a matter for fact, it took me less than 5 minutes to fix all of these concerns. Let me know how you feel, and I'd appreciate if you pinpoint what your exact concerns​ are (if you have any more regarding the "clunky" text or flow.) Honestly, they seem very easy to fix and I can assure you there won't be many (there aren't as many paragraph many as suggested). Thanks for that, but again it's not as bulky as you make it sound.


 * Also, do yourself and the world a favour and if you have such great concerns about an article, please don't wait as long as more than fourty odd days to comment. The article (at any FAC) undergoes a lot of traffic in that long a period. (One might have to things over and over again just because A wants it one way and B the other.) I really think that the editors around at FAC would appreciate timer comments a lot more. Numerounovedant   Talk  17:24, 26 July 2017 (UTC)


 * Hi, numerounovedant, I don't think it's particularly polite to criticize me for taking time out of my day to offer you comments on an article that hasn't gotten a ton of feedback in the past week. Provided that I nearly opposed the article on the basis of prose, I think there is a clear issue with some of the writing, though I didn't provide every single instance.  ceran  thor 23:44, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

More Comments from Ceranthor

 * Produced by Saria and the Bombay Berlin Film Productions, it stars Dhruv Ganesh and Shiv Pandit. The film focuses on the homosexual relationship between two friends (played by Ganesh and Pandit) - The repetition of Ganesh and Pandit is redundant; this should be combined into one sentence
 * The film focuses on the homosexual relationship between two friends (played by Ganesh and Pandit) that takes center stage - Colloquial; should replace takes center stage per WP:IDIOM
 * Saria conceived Loev's script while he was working on another project, - should explicitly mention who
 * The script and the performances of Pandit and Ganesh were particularly praised. Commentators were also appreciative of the unconventional and fresh treatment of the taboo subject matter of same-sex relationships in India. The film won the Audience Award for Best Feature Film at the 2016 Tel Aviv International Film Festival. The distribution rights for Loev were acquired by Netflix and it was released on the platform on May 1, 2017. - Three consecutive sentences start with "The..."
 * Jai (Pandit), a successful New York based businessman - New York-based should be hyphenated
 * The trip coincides with the latter's business meeting Mumbai. - Grammar
 * Sahil plans a weekend getaway to the Western Ghats, - repeating what was said in a previous sentence
 * arrives at the airport to receive Jai - You can't receive a person
 * Sahil in turn derives that Jai is struggling with his mother adjusting to a foreign environment. - this is vague; is she adjusting to the US? Should be more specifically described
 * Jai is amazed by Sahil's skill as a guitarist and suggests that he pursue a career as a full–time musician - This is the sort of abrupt thing I noted... there's no mention of him playing a guitar, you just write that he's amazed by Sahil's skill as a guitarist
 * Later, he gifts him a guitar during lunch - I think gift is usually too colloquial to be used in an encyclopedia article
 * The two engage in several arguments and bicker about their plans throughout the trip, while enjoying each other's company nonetheless. - arguments about what?
 * Sahil is irked by Jai's indifferent behaviour - what indifferent behavior? Be concrete; the earlier sentence suggested that Jai was showing appreciation for Sahil's guitar skills
 * One night, the two get into a heated argument over their differences. - Is it more heated than their previous arguments? There's not much to specifically suggest that
 * Sahil interrupts Jai and his clients and embarrasses the latter with a romantic gesture in front of everyone - Abrupt transition again; you don't say that Sahil goes to the meeting so he's just suddenly there according to this summary
 * On the contrary, Jai blames him for not reciprocating his affection from the beginning - On the contrary seems like editorializing
 * The two go ahead with their plans to meet Alex - Were these previously mentioned?
 * Alex dances with Jai, who looks even more impressed with Sahil's artistry - more impressed than Alex? Or more impressed than he was before?
 * The script was picked up by Suckale and Lamba; the duo agreed to co–produce Saria's directorial debut under the working title of Loev, a take on the word "love" itself.[4] - picked up by... who agreed to co-produce - no need for the semicolon
 * The film was set in the director's hometown Mumbai, Maharashtra.[2] Saria said that the film's production team "needed local cooperation" and as the director he "needed locations [...] to be able to use their streets".[5] - The first sentence here doesn't fit well into the paragraph as is; these two should be combined for flow purposes
 * Major parts of the script were written during the Supreme Court of India's ongoing hearing of the Section 377 of the Indian Penal Code, criminalising same–sex relationships in India.[7] - Grammar; criminalising doesn't make sense; you should also mention when this was time-wise
 * With a total runtime of 92 minutes, the film was pitched under the labels of Bombay Berlin Film Productions, and Four Line Films.[1][10] - what does this have to do with the rest of the paragraph?
 * The film stars Shiv Pandit and Dhruv Ganesh; - You shouldn't keep re-linking Pandit or Mumbai or any other articles throughout the body of the text excluding the lead; see WP:REPEATLINK
 * The dialogue was written in Hinglish, as described by Saria to be "the language I hear around me [in Mumbai]". - This quotation doesn't make sense in the context of the article to me, since you mention that he wrote it while in the US. Might be best to remove the quotation part
 * However, Ganesh was apprehensive about playing the character, but after initial scepticism he agreed to play the role. - I'd remove however here
 * Siddharth Menon and Rishabh J. Chaddha play supporting roles in the film.[12] - abrupt sentence that breaks up the flow of the rest of the paragraph
 * in the peninsular India.[2][4][14] - Grammar; "the" shouldn't be there
 * A crowdfunding campaign was started at the funding portal Indiegogo - This should read "on" the portal Indiegogo
 * Among the crew members, only a core group were aware of the details of the plot, and to the rest of the crew it was a road trip film, one identical to Dil Chahta Hai (2001). - This should probably be directly cited
 * The filming was done rather discreetly, fearing opposition against the film's underlying subject matter of homosexuality.[18] - From whom? The community? The crew?
 * and as noted by such commentators as Aseem Chhabra, Zack Ford, and Subhash K. Jha the theme of sexuality takes a backseat to the aforementioned subjects. - Very verbose; this could be copyedited to avoid the necessity of using aforementioned
 * Also, as expressed by Saria himself, the film was intended as a "universal story about attraction". - Direct citation for quote?
 * While Vox's Siddharth Naidu thought of the film as politically radical and emotionally raw, Aseem Chhabra - why are you reintroducing Chhabra's first name a second time?
 * Freelance journalist Steven Borowiec agreed with the latter idea, - Why the use of latter idea? That's such a clunky way of saying he agreed with Chhabra
 * Writing for ThinkProgress Ford made note of the fact that although the socio-political backdrop, "is never explicitly mentioned, it’s alluded to throughout".[27] - Why made note of the fact instead of observed or noted?
 * Saria familiarised himself with the independent American cinema, - no "the" necessary here
 * Critics and commentators drew similarities between Loev and Ang Lee's Brokeback Mountain (2005), as explained by Jha that the similarity "in the way the rocky terrain is used to define the theme of forbidden love is palpable".[28] - Grammar errors
 * The film was thought to be visually and structurally similar to Andrew Haigh’s Weekend (2011), and Wong Kar Wai’s Happy Together (1997), - By whom?
 * Loev initially premiered at the Tallinn Black Nights Film Festival, Estonia on 19 November 2015.[1] - Isn't it redundant to say it initially premiered?
 * The film then travelled to various other film festivals all across Europe and Asia - Did the film "travel"? That doesn't seem an appropriate verb choice here
 * Transilvania International Film Festival, Italy. - Is it in Romania or Italy?
 * Loev premiered at the LGBTQ film festivals across the world including the Tel Aviv International LGBT Film Festival, the BFI Flare: London LGBT Film Festival, and the Frameline Film Festival.[32] - Was it really premiering if it had already had its premiere elsewhere?
 * The film won the Audience Award for Best Feature Film at the 2016 Tel Aviv International Film Festival.[34] - Doesn't really flow with the rest of the paragraph
 * The release section overrelies on the verb was; introduce a lot more active voice to keep the text engaging.
 * Shortly after the film's release, Rajeev Masand hosted Saria on CNN-News18, - Which is?
 * organised a roundtable discussion for the lead actors, Saria and the film's producers.[37] - If you're using the serial comma elsewhere, you must stay consistent throughout the article
 * The Hindu critic Namrata Joshi, remarked, - grammar
 * adding that the endeavour was, "a deceptively simple yet nuanced and heartfelt take on the eternal relationship conundrum".[6] - no need for the comma before the quote
 * A reviewer at the International Film Festival of Kerala, writing for The New Indian Express - no need for the comma
 * Film critic Subhash K. Jha gave the film four stars, - out of four? out of five?
 * Highlighting the cinematography, direction and the performances from Ganesh and Pandit, - as good? What did he highlight them as?
 * She thought that there were several scenes in the film that the viewers will "think about long after the movie is over". - citation for this direct quote?
 * Loev garnered praise from critics at film festivals all across the world - such as?
 * In a 4/5 star review - previously you spelled out four stars; this should stay consistent
 * with Brooke Corso of The Macguffin stating that the beautiful and heartbreaking film shines when, "it focuses on what is said when the characters aren't speaking, and what is avoided when they do".[45] - no comma needed before the quote
 * Matt Shiverdecker of Austin American-Statesman was largely laudatory of the film at the same event as well, dubbing it as a "small miracle". - direct quote citation?
 * He praised the added realism, unlike the clichéd storybook romance - grammar... this sentence doesn't make sense as is

Sorry, but I don't feel the prose is up to FA standards, and therefore I have to oppose at this time. I think a thorough copyedit could improve the article to where it needs to be, but as it stands, I think there are too many issues with the writing quality.  ceran  thor 00:34, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I am sorry, I don't wish to continue the review. I have been really caught up in RL, and it took me long enough to go through the comments, considering I took atleast four comfort naps while doing so because of the snore fest that is the idea of putting 10 different comments for commas. I've already had to change 50% of the text to make it sound less vague and it just doesn't read as it should anymore. I am not going to do it again. Let's just make better use of our time, you can bury this review. I'd like to thank everyone for their time here. I am sure that the article has improved a great deal already from the cubes received, a bronze star isn't always the ultimate goal I believe. Numerounovedant   Talk  06:06, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Coordinator comment: Can I just clarify,, that you wish to withdraw this nomination? Sarastro1 (talk) 19:46, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
 * Yes, Sarastro1. Numerounovedant   Talk  03:59, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 04:07, 28 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.