Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Luan Da/archive3


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by User:SandyGeorgia 21:51, 3 January 2009.

Luan Da

 * Nominator(s): Nousernamesleft
 * previous FAC (15:53, 29 August 2008)

Finally, Luan Da, the mystic and conman who became the second most powerful man in the sixth largest ancient empire simply by telling tall tales (and a little magnetic trick with chess pieces), is back at FAC. He's been through two previous FACs - premature, of course - since when he's undergone the rigors of a peer review (which unfortunately didn't get a lot of love, though Rjwilmsi helpfully fixed up some MOS trinkets for me). The article still is fairly short, though not as short as before; a brief description of the changes since the previous FAC can be found in the peer review. Nousernamesleft (talk) 22:44, 19 November 2008 (UTC)


 * Restart, old nom. Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 01:40, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Support, as before. Mike Christie (talk) 14:51, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Not quite yet English sources are preferred to Chinese when available. Here they clearly are (for example, the magnetic statues are in Needham, and most of the story of Luan must be in Sima; the customs of Early Han China must be available hundreds of places), and I encourage the efforts to replace one with the other, and look forward to supporting when this is done. (I should also like to see Sima Qian cited by chapter, as well as page number, which would make the references independent of edition.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:54, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * English sources are preferred to Chinese when available No. English sources are only preferred to foreign ones when they are of equal quality. --Novil Ariandis (talk) 20:49, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * And sources of equal quality to a publisher's website and China's 30 Most Controversial Historical Figures should not be hard to come by. The rest of the sources aren't popularizations; why should we put up with worse soources which will be of limited use to our readership? We should not assume that the users of this English WP read Chinese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:09, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * The bit about magnetic statues is now sourced to Needham. I'll see how much of Luan's life I can source to the English sources I'm using. I'm not sure what you're talking about in regards to "the customs of Early Han China must be available hundreds of places," since that's entirely sourced to Lewis, a very recent scholarly work in English. I added the chapter for Sima Qian as well. Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:35, 21 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The one use of Xuhui (for use of personal names and epithets in histories under the Han). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)


 * I feel this article is in a somewhat catch-22 situation. On one hand, there is a complaint that the article is too short, so additional information is brought out.  These sources are not found in English sources as most Western works go for a general summarized approach that drops the details between various historical accounts and Sima Qian's works (this is described by Nienhauser in his prefaces of his The Grand Scribe's Records).  Chinese sources are used to verify additional information (they are linked to websites, but the contents are lifted from the books).  However, now the contention is that these sources are supposedly "not as good" as English sources (which do not cover the details).  So should this article take out the Chinese sources and the information they source, and be left with a shorter article, or should it keep looking for likely non-existent English sources to back up those details?
 * Regarding the use of Xuhui's reference, there are English sources that tell of how ancient figures are named in historical accounts (e.g. see "Family Names and Given Names" of Endymion Porter Wilkinson's Chinese History). However, there are none found so far that specifically name Luan Da as an example.  It still boils down to the fact that Xuhui's is the only book found so far that specifically analyzes "Luan Da".  Jappalang (talk) 01:26, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then cite both; Wilkinson for the custom, Xuhui for the application. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)


 * Comments: The Beginnings of Alchemy journal Isis, Vol. 38, No. 1/2 (Nov., 1947), p. 74, Published by: The University of Chicago Press on behalf of The History of Science Society  I found some things that are not mentioned in this article, but need to be mentioned (doubts about comprehensive). The half page para in the journal speaks about
 * Another name of Luan Da: "Taida", i do not know why a superscript is used in the journal
 * "alchemical gold" (no mention of alchemy, gold is mentioned)
 * Luan Da being intially a slave of King Kang of Jia-Dung (may be the same as "Liu Ji, the Prince of Jiao Dong" mentioned in the article) -- Redtigerxyz Talk 04:45, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Alchemy is mentioned in the current article via the " create gold " piped link in "Rise to power". King Kang was Liu Ji's posthumous title, they are one and the same.  As for "slave", this was discussed in the previous FAC.  Jappalang (talk) 08:36, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: To avoid confusion, by "previous FAC", Jappalang means the FAC before the restart, not FAC 2. Nousernamesleft (talk) 15:27, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The FAC before restart is visible here. Looking at the discussion of "slave" there strongly suggests that Nousername has been presented with English sources for much of this, and has misunderstood what they are. In particular Isis is a journal; George Sarton was its founding editor. The article is available, through JSTOR: |Homer H. Dubs, Beginnings of Alchemy, Isis, Vol 38, 1/2 p.62-86 (1947). Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:57, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * The particular article should not be considered as a source for the article, however, as it deals with entirely different subject matter and only mentions Luan Da trivially, with redundant information. Nousernamesleft (talk) 16:41, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Then make my voixce Oppose until it uses English sources, of which Dubs' article is one, for materials sourceable both in English and Chinese. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 17:25, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Oh, I can and will replace most of Luan's life and perhaps the naming customs above with English sources - however, I refuse point-blank to use a source like Dubs. Nousernamesleft (talk) 18:01, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Please write me when you have.Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:38, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
 * (outdent) I re-sourced a significant amount of material to the new Qian translation and other works. How does that look? Nousernamesleft (talk) 21:23, 23 December 2008 (UTC)
 * Better, certainly. The remnant appears to be Xuhui's assertion about historians not using surnames for the common people which is surely findable elsewhere, and several digs about Luan's corruption. If these are consensus (aren't some of them in Sima himself?) they can be sourced elsewhere; although even if they are, we may not need them. If they are only in Zhang, why do we need them at all? (I'll do some research myself after Christmastime.) Septentrionalis PMAnderson 14:57, 24 December 2008 (UTC)

Oppose—1a. Sorry, but it's not well-enough written. It's hard to summarise the technical deficiencies, but they're there. You need to bring on-board one or more good copy-editors. You know how to find them for this type of topic? The lead provides ample evidence of the problems.
 * Does MOSNUM really say to put a ? for the birth-date when it's unknown? Maybe it does.
 * "Possessing the gift of gab and adept at confidence tricks, Luan Da gained the favour of Emperor Wu of Han, also known as Han Wudi. In the space of a few months, he rose from"—"the gift of gab" is not English ("the gab"), and is rather too informal, especially at the top. Is this a phrase you've seen in one of the sources and simply moved across? The last "he" refers to which man?
 * "In the space of a few months, he rose from a commoner to great influence, holding titles and land, and marrying one of the emperor's daughters. However, he could not fulfill his promise to Emperor Wu, failing to produce a means to immortality." The "However" doesn't work well, because it refers to something we should already have been told about—the promise. Clunky effect.
 * "He gradually lost the emperor's favour and went on a purported visit to immortals; however, he was ..."—Who did the purporting? He, presumably, but we shouldn't have to wonder. Nor should we have to click on the link to "immortals" to find out what on earth it all means. Very odd. Another "however", in the very next sentence.
 * Another back-to-front sentence: "His death was a sign of the trade's fall from favour; laws were passed to restrict the practice of mediumship, even penalising those who married its practitioners." The trade? What trade? Ah, we reach it later—mediumship, whatever that is.

The whole article is at issue; I've just pointed out examples of the larger problem. Tony  (talk)  14:03, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.