Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ludwig Ross/archive1

Ludwig Ross

 * Nominator(s): UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

This article is about the first (real) head of the Greek Archaeological Service, the meticulous, scholarly and complex Ludwig Ross. One of the many Germans to make the journey to Greece in the early years of independence, Ross played a major role in the establishment of the practice of archaeology in Greece and the early restorations on the Acropolis of Athens. He is also something of a tragic figure: he considered himself a foreigner in his native Denmark, was eventually rejected and effectively exiled by his adoptive Greek homeland, and died in misery having never really managed to integrate into German academia during the final phase of his career. I've reviewed the article recently but wrote it a little while ago; it underwent a thorough and thoughtful GA nomination conducted by User:Mike Christie. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 13:09, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Image review


 * Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
 * Got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Suggest adding alt text
 * Again, think I've got them all now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Ludwig_Ross_-_Imagines_philologorum.jpg is tagged as lacking author information
 * Is that a problem, given that we've got publisher information (Alfred Gudeman, 1911) which puts it into the public domain regardless of who the author is? If it's from Imagines Philologorum, it will be a portrait by someone else that Gudeman collected. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The image currently has a tag of author life+70; unless this was a work for hire I don't think publisher can substitute. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * OK, but we can replace that tag with, surely? As it's a photograph, it's got to be at least 170 years old (the subject died in 1853), which I think covers us for life+70. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * PD-US-expired covers US status. You could replace the life+70 with PD-old-assumed. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * File:AcropolisatathensSitePlanPeripatos.svg is missing a data source
 * Yes, it is... which is a problem given that it's a source for quite a lot of other valuable images. Swapped for [:File:Plan Acropolis of Athens.svg], which has good sources. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Hansen_Athena_Nike_1836.png: when and where was this first published? Ditto File:Ludwig_Ross_by_Georgios_Varouchas_1870.jpg
 * On the Hansen painting: Hansen donated his work to the library of the Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen after his death in 1883. Haugsted says he exhibited much of his work from Greece in 1857, but doesn't explicitly say which paintings this includes. Equally, I can't find any evidence that it was published until its current web iteration (it might be in Haugsted?), so might we have a case for PD-unpublished? UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * When does the web iteration date to? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2010. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:09, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Varouchas: I don't have my physical copy of Haugsted for the next couple of weeks; that might have some information on the portrait, though I suspect we'll find that we can only show that it's been exhibited within the university, which probably isn't enough to count as publication? I'm fairly sure that one has been in print (I'm almost certain it's in Haugsted). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Let's hold off on answering this until you have Haugsted and can see what it says. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:52, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Haugsted has nothing on either image, interestingly. I think our most likely case is going to be via PD-unpublished for both, given that I can't find any sign of either of them being put into print before the very recent online sources we have referred for them here. What do you think? UndercoverClassicist T·C 21:36, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That seems reasonable. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:18, 21 August 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Athens_University_Museum.jpg needs a tag for the original work
 * Now has one. I forgot that Greece doesn't have FoP. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * File:Bibliothek_des_Deutschen_Archäologischen_Instituts_Athen_14_(cropped_2).JPG: what is the artist's date of death? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:58, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have no idea; I can't find any information about the artist at all. There's an old photograph here, but in the absence of a definite date I don't think we're likely to get far here. Removed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I thought I'd done rather better than that; thanks for picking all these up, Nikki. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 11:22, 9 August 2023 (UTC)
 * All changes made per the above. Does that sort things on the image front? UndercoverClassicist T·C 11:07, 28 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:53, 28 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Bneu2013
UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC) Support pending a citation for the present-day valuation of the defunct currency. Glad to review, and hoping someone will be willing to pick up one of my FACs. Bneu2013 (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * What exactly does "reconstruction" of the Indo-European language family refer to? Does this mean reviving an obsolete language?
 * Yup: or at least, working out what the extinct language was like. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Article says his publications were used by contemporary scholars. Are they still used?
 * They've generally been superseded by more complete corpora, though people still cite them in the interest of showing their scholarly workings. You wouldn't generally reach for one of his books when starting a course of Greek epigraphy, though. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Last lead sentence is borderline run-on; I suggest splitting.
 * Split; still not sure it's great. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * It's good. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Fourth sentence in the second paragraph of "Early life" is a run-on.
 * Split.
 * Second split sentence is kind of long, but reads better. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Inconsistent use of single/double quote marks around "Fund for the Public Benefit"; double seems right.
 * Agreed; done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Should ref 14 be moved to after "1830;"?
 * I don't think Minner included the date: from memory, the key thing there was Nitzch. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I haven't checked, but I'm guessing ref 1 covers the date.
 * Will Template:Inflation work with the monetary figure. Also, it looks like the 2023 value is not cited.
 * I'm not sure how to get it to work properly with currencies that no longer exist, but I'll gladly take a steer here. I can't actually remember where I got that from; it might well be Haugsted, in which case the year should be 1996 (I might then have inflated it manually). I don't have my hands on Haugsted at the moment, but will check when I do. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok. You might want to ask someone who understands this template better than I do. I've only ever used it with existing currencies.
 * When I get hold of Haugsted, I'll see if there's a good way to resolve this. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Found Haugsted; no idea where I got that sterling conversion from, but another source gives a skilled male mason's annual wage as ~300 rigsdaler, so I've added a gloss that it was about twice that and cited the new source. UndercoverClassicist T·C 22:01, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Citation error in the last sentence of the last paragraph of "Early life".
 * That was ugly. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:27, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Archaeological career in Greece
 * - "He was made deputy curator of antiquities at the Archaeological Museum of Napoleon, then capital of Greece..." - this reads like the museum was the capital.
 * Not sure about that one (compare: "King Charles lives in Buckingham Palace, a huge, gilded waste of money with fourteen bathrooms"). Can't see an obvious rephrase that doesn't make a mess, but happy to take a suggestion. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I see what you mean. Considering that this wasn't a place (or city) that I was familiar with, as opposed to Buckingham Palace for example, I was initially confused. Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A capital is, by definition, a city (or at least a settlement), so I'm not sure there's a real ambiguity here; I'd quite like to keep the museum's proper name rather than something like "the archaeological museum in Nafplion". UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * First sentence of second paragraph is a run-on.
 * Do you mean ? I'm not seeing that if so. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I was referring to . Bneu2013 (talk) 00:01, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ah yes: split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:43, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Work on the Acropolis of Athens
 * Space after ref 34.
 * Gone. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Is the colon after "archaeological park" supposed to be a semicolon? Same as in next sentences.
 * No; the colon helps to reinforce that there's a strong relationship between the two clauses (in the first case, that the second is the opposite of what might have been expected). Second one is now a full stop. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Should "palm-tree" be hyphenated?
 * It's a bit old-fashioned, perhaps, but intentional and fits common usage. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 22:43, 10 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Suggest changing the colon after "August" to a period.
 * Done UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Stray period after "Megali Panagia; looks like it's supposed to be a comma.
 * Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Second sentence of final paragraph is a run-on.
 * Split and slightly rearranged. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Sentence that begins with "At a time when relatively few Greek..." is a run-on.
 * Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Naval Records Affair" and resignation as Ephor General
 * First sentence is borderline run-on. Suggest splitting.
 * Split. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Link "Athenian navy" to "Athenian military".
 * I've linked it to the redirect which goes there, in case someone comes along and makes that page. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Professorship at Athens
 * Should we include an inflation adjustment for Ross's salary?
 * Better to contextualise; I think: simply putting it into Euros is often unhelpful, as it doesn't account for spending power. I've contextualised with an EFN which seems to fit the general scholarly sense that this was reasonable but not lavish. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Makes sense. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Citation error in first sentence of fourth paragraph.
 * Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "sufficiently fluently" doesn't sound grammatical; suggest rewording to something like "in which he was sufficiently fluent"
 * I'm not sure; it's equivalent to sufficiently well (adverb modifying adverb), and often used in HQRS. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * As an American, I don't recall hearing people use two consecutive -ly adverbs, but maybe this is common in other parts of the English speaking world. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Link "Asia Minor" to "Anatolia". I would also split this sentence.
 * Done on both counts. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Swap "who opposed the presence of foreigners in Greek public life" and "as Prime Minister in 1841".
 * That reads slightly wrong, given that who really wants to stand as close as possible to its antecedent, but I'll have a think about how to rephrase the whole thing. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ok, I see now. I think we can let this pass. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In first sentence of final paragraph, I would change second 1843 to "of that year" or something appropriate.
 * Done.
 * Professorship at Halle
 * Who/what is Humboldt in the first sentence? Is it the person mentioned later in the paragraph?
 * Yup: reordered.
 * Link to Friedrich Wilhelm IV of Prussia.
 * Frederick William IV of Prussia is linked in the preceding sentence. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:05, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * ...but therefore shouldn't be given two names in two sentences. Fixed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Typo in the link. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Fixed now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:17, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Second sentence of third-to-last paragraph is a long run-on. I see this being split possibly into three sentences.
 * Split in two; I think it's better now. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Personal life, death and legacy
 * Per MOS:SEASON, replace "spring of 1847" with something else appropriate, like "early 1847 or the month this occurred (I know this is sometimes complicated by what the source says).
 * I'm actually not sure it is the Spring; the source says Frühjahr, which I suspect is more like "early in the year" than "Spring" (Frühlingzeit). Changed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Was Ross's illness a reason for his suicide?
 * This is one I'm not happy touching too much; the source to which this bit traces back goes into quite considerable detail about Ross's methods and alleged motives, but not from, as far as I can tell, any position of knowledge. They attribute it to generalised misery and Weltschmertz, but I strongly suspect that mostly comes from a desire to romanticise Ross as a tortured genius and to give him some grandeur in death. One might sensibly infer that his increasing pain was a contributing factor, but I don't think we can ever know - he never explained himself - and frankly I think it's a bit irresponsible to be too speculative about "justifying" suicide. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fair. If the reason were known, I would say include it, but if not, I say leave it as-is. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Good eye and good points throughout: thank you for these and for taking the time to review. I think I've replied to all of them: mostly straightforwardly done. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 08:33, 11 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You're welcome. I just need to review the sources, and then I should be able to support. Bneu2013 (talk) 05:30, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Source review
 * Add Google Books and Internet Archive to all of the sources that were retrieved through these sites.
 * Done for all those with an url= to those sites. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Do we need to include the full date for the footnotes that cite The Spectator Supplement, instead of just the year?
 * The Spectator is published every week, so I think so: there would have been about 52 different issues that year. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:23, 12 August 2023 (UTC) I musunderstood: yes in the biblio, not sure it's necessary for the footnotes (neater with just the year). On the grounds that we wouldn't necessarily expect to be able to identify the source from the sfn alone, changed. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 07:26, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments by Golden
Golden talk 13:41, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't wikilink German in the first sentence per MOS:OVERLINK.
 * Agreed (especially as it makes a double-bluelink). UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * independent Kingdom of Greece - Is "independent" necessary here?
 * It's a bit of a tautology (there never was a non-independent Kingdom of Greece), but it's important to establish that a) Greece is newly independent and b) Greece is newly a monarchy. I don't think we should rely on our readers' knowing that the establishment of the Greek monarchy followed, with a short but important delay, Greece's independence. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * While at Kiel, Ross met his friend and future travelling companion, the philologist Peter Wilhelm Forchhammer. - It is not clear whether he became friends with Forchhammer during or prior to this meeting. Can you clarify it?
 * I can't; one assumes that they became friends at university. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * with a foreword by his friend Otto Jahn. - It would be interesting to learn more about Jahn and his friendship with Ross. —
 * It would; sadly, I have yet to do so or find anyone else who has done so and written about it. UndercoverClassicist (talk) 15:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I did find one reference that the two met at Kiel; honestly, I wouldn't hang my hat on it, but Jahn did study (and later teach) there, so it seems like the most sensible place for it. Added that. UndercoverClassicist T·C 10:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * Thank you for the replies, UndercoverClassicist. Happy to support. — Golden  talk 15:56, 13 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments from Mike Christie
Some minor prose suggestions: More to come. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "When Ludwig was four years old, his father moved to the Gut Altekoppel estate in Bornhöved, which he managed and later acquired. Their five sons and three daughters ..." Suggest "his father moved the family" or "the family moved", so as to provide a nearer referent for "their" in the next sentence".
 * Yes, that one was a bit wonky. Gone with the first option. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Ross's work on the Acropolis began in January 1835, and has been described as the first systematic excavation of the site." If the source is authoritative enough, could we make this "was the first", rather than hedging?
 * It's a bit hedgy. The problem is that it's very much not the first archaeological work on the Acropolis: most notoriously, you've got Elgin who, fairly systematically, removes sculptures from most of the major temples from 1801. The Ottomans also undertook a lot of building and repurposing, such as the construction of the Parthenon mosque, which must have involved excavation: we might say that this wasn't scientific study as we understand it, but you could probably level the same charge at Ross. Ross was definitely a more careful and methodical man than his predecessors, but I'm a little uncomfortable drawing a sharp line to say that what he did was "systematic" and that nothing before "counts": I'm also not keen to dive completely into the myth that the story of Greek archaeology starts with independence in 1821. Perhaps I'm being a bit precious about this one, though. UndercoverClassicist T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I think that's useful background. If you can summarize something like that in a couple of sentences in a footnote I think that would be worth it.  Otherwise I think the current wording sounds more definite than it really should. Perhaps it could just be cut, if we can't give it appropriate context? Mike Christie (talk - contribs -  library) 21:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I've added an EFN which, I hope, clarifies the contrast being made while framing all the value judgements as "have been described as...". UndercoverClassicist T·C 07:47, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That looks good. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:54, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You link disiecta membra, but it seems an unnecessarily obscure way to say fragments, or remains. I've read quite a few archaeology papers but haven't run into this term before.  Is it the standard term for this site?  Or does it have a specific meaning that I'm not picking up from the linked article?
 * It is the general term used in this particular context (the partial bits of an ancient monument left after time and looting have done away with most of them). UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 23:55, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * OK in that case -- just wanted to be sure the usage was justified., Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 02:21, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The link to assistant professor seems not to be very useful; you say "German-style" but there's nothing to explain that in the target article.
 * It was a bit of a fudge, because Palagia uses the Greek: I've read around a bit more and it's fairly clearly equivalent to the German idea of Privatdozenten, so I've linked there with a brief explanation. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You redlink Bavarocracy in the body of the article; suggest linking it in the lead too.
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "He took a leave of absence for about half of 1839 and all of 1842": suggest "He took leaves of absence".
 * Yes - done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 09:59, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Forgive me for putting my oar in here, but "leaves of absence" looks rather odd to me, and I'd vote for "he took leave of absence..."  Tim riley  talk   17:55, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Yes, I think that's right: leave here in its technical meaning of "permission to lapse from normal expectations". We'd certainly be fine saying '"he took leave twice, in 1839 and 1842", though that sounds more appropriate to a military context. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:09, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I admit it's not the most natural usage; I don't think it's technically wrong, but I don't mind being outvoted here. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:05, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We've removed the a, which I think fixes the problem you identified, Mike: I think we've ended up with a third option rather than a head-to-head vote. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 22:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

That's everything. All minor points; a fine article. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:18, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "The project was financed by the Prussian Ministry of Culture and Friedrich Wilhelm, to whom Humboldt had recommended the project." Can we avoid the repetition of "project"?
 * Very easily; done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 22:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I wouldn't oppose for this, but I would suggest linking to the Danish Wikipedia's article on Haugsted rather than to the Wikidata page, which is going to confuse most readers who follow the link.
 * Done. I went through a phase of linking to Wikidata on the grounds that we were really doing ILLs for article creators, and that Wikidata usually gave you a few initial options to choose from when crafting a new article, but I've come much more in line with your view more recently: most non-editing readers can hit the Google Translate button, but might not be comfortable navigating around a Wikidata page. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 22:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that he "died in misery" in the introduction to this FAC, but I don't see anything to that effect in the article -- is there anything solid enough to add?
 * In the Greece section, we have "he entered a severe depression during this period which continued for the remainder of his life", his status as an "isolated figure" in Germany and "he developed the beginnings of a health condition, which gradually reduced his strength and mobility and caused him increasing pain and discomfort.". Perhaps more could be done to emphasise quite how miserable he seems to have been towards the end of his life, but I don't want to fall into the trap of repeating trite rationalisations and cod-psychoanalysis from contemporary not-really-observers. Will have a look over the sources and see if there's good material there. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 22:36, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Support. The point about his "misery" came up because when I was reading the "Personal life ..." section I noticed there was nothing about his depression there, having recalled your mention of it in the nomination statement, but I didn't remember at that point that it was mentioned earlier in the article. A depression that lasted the rest of his life seems worth mentioning again in that last section but it's a judgement call; I leave it up to you. Also just making sure you saw my follow up to the "systematic excavation" question above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 23:32, 16 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I've added a small comment that his depression continued: I'd quite like a source to link it to the deaths of his brothers, but none have, as far as I can see, and I don't actually have one for John other than the photograph of his tombstone. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:24, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * ...looking at those dates, I realise that John is almost certainly not Ludwig's brother, but I now have absolutely no idea who he was. Fixed caption. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:26, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Support from Tim riley
Two minor suggestions, neither of which affects my support:
 * Lead
 * He was also a significant figure ... was particularly significant" – I remind you of the good advice in Plain Words about "significant": "This is a good and useful word, but it has a special flavour of its own and it should not be thoughtlessly used as a mere variant of important, considerable, appreciable, or quite large ... it ought to be used only where there is a ready answer to the reader's unspoken question 'Significant, is it? And what does it signify?' (There's another stray "significant in the last sentence of the article, too.)


 * Work on the Acropolis of Athens (1834–1836)
 * Throughout his excavations on the Acropolis, he published his results – this far through the paragraph it's a long time since we had Ross's name mentioned, and perhaps it might be helpful to add it here.

Nothing to cause alarm and despondency there, and I have no hesitation in adding my support for the elevation of this article. It's a cracking read (I lost count of the number of times I muttered "Good Lord!" when reading it), well and widely referenced, evidently balanced and neutral and admirably illustrated. Meets all the FA criteria in my view.  Tim riley  talk   17:51, 16 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Many thanks for these, Tim. You are quite right on significant: all three now changed. I've actually split that long paragraph at the sentence you indicated, and added Ross's name there. Many thanks. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:06, 16 August 2023 (UTC)

Source review
Sources are reliable; I queried the wordpress one in the GAN and am satisfied with the answer there. Links all work as far as I can test them -- I am getting unusably slow responses from archive.org at the moment so have not verified those. A couple of minor formatting points: -- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:23, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Missing a publisher location for Giraud (2018).
 * What rule are you following for translating chapter titles, book titles, and journal titles? For example, Goette (2015) has the book title translated but not the chapter title and Brandl (1987) has the same, but for "Historical Einleitung" you translate the chapter title but not the book title, and Lehmann (2003) is the same. For Blau (1855) you translate the article title but not the journal, and Junker (1995) is the same; it looks as though that is consistent for journals.
 * The theory is that I've tried to translate all primary titles: that is, the title of the thing actually being cited (so the book if it's a book, the chapter if it's a chapter in an edited volume, the article if it's in a journal), and so on. If you're happy with that as a philosophy, I'll go through and make sure it's consistent. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 16:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * That's fine; any approach that is not utterly mad is fine so long as it's applied consistently. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 21:04, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * "Not utterly mad" is one of the stronger endorsements my work has received. Goette fixed (it actually was the chapter that was translated, but I'd used the wrong parameter name): I think this is now consistent now. A small exception made for Ross's work Erinnerungen und Mittheilungen aus Griechenland: this first appears as the volume title for Jahn's foreword and later is cited in its own right, and it felt weird to leave the title untranslated the first time but translate it on second mention, so I've translated it on first use as well. If this is truly offensive, I suppose the best fix would be to translate everything (or at least all book titles): it feels a little wrong to translate journal titles when they are universally referred to in the language of writing.
 * Giraud fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 22:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about the delay getting back to this -- yes, the translations all look consistent now. I did just notice one more minor thing -- you give the Greek name of the publisher for Mallouchou-Tufano (2016). Per MOS:ROMANIZATION I think this should be transliterated. And of course if you ever want me to provide a reference that your sourcing is not utterly mad I'd be glad to do so. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:12, 20 August 2023 (UTC)


 * I've added a transliteration in square brackets. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 17:42, 20 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Pass. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 01:35, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

Support Comments from JennyOz
Hello UndercoverClassicist, thanks for this interesting article. I have a few nitpicky comments and suggestions...
 * Hello Jenny - thanks for these. I've made a start as below: more to follow. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Refs Bibliography Succession box Poss cats Hope all that is understandable! JennyOz (talk) 14:45, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * short description - move to top
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * (22 July 1806, Bornhöved – 6 August 1859, Halle an der Saale) - should probably remove those two locations (or someone else will) (per MOS:BIRTHPLACE "Birth and death places, if known, should be mentioned in the body of the article, and can appear in the lead if relevant to notability, but not in the opening brackets alongside the birth and death dates.")
 * Done (the more you know...) <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Bavarocracy – - move italics markup back to before nbsp
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * on Aristophanes' Wasps,[10] supervised by Nitzch - typo Nitzsch
 * Good eye; fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Aristophanes' Wasps, - only use of apos s without extra s, intentional?
 * Yes, but no longer consistent with how this article works, so changed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * with Nitzch's support - typo Nitzsch
 * Fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * zeal … to keep everything - fix ellipsis
 * Done (quite why we have that character is a mystery to me) <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * deemed to be of no "archaeological, constructional or pictureseque" - typo picturesque
 * Fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * to allow the construction of Hermes Street; - is Ermou Street (Athens)?
 * Practically certainly: linked, but I've kept the English name as that's what's in the source, so it allows someone to correct us if there's (for example) another or a former Hermes Street. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Venetian siege of 1687 -refine link to Siege of the Acropolis (1687)?
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * A lack of heavy lifting equipment - compound hyphen, heavy-lifting equipment?
 * I thought about this, but as it's both the equipment and the lifting that's heavy, I don't think it's appropriate here. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * in the harbour of the Piraeus uncovered - the Piraeus intentional?
 * Yes; it's invariably the Piraeus when talking about the ancient site (and, more generally, to classicists): Piraeus is used for the district of Athens, but the Piraeus is considerably smaller and more specific. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Until 1838, Pittakis and others continued to write hostile articles against him - Ross
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * The regent Armansperg promised to restore Ross's status as Ephor General, but failed to do so, cooling relations between himself and Ross - slightly ambiguous, did Armansperg cool relations or should it be 'which cooled relations'?
 * Fair enough: changed as suggested. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * known since 1932 the National and Kapodistrian University of Athens - known since 1932 as the
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * just parentheses, not link, on National and Kapodistrian University of Athens seeing Othonian University is same target
 * I'm not sure about this one: both are printworthy and could theoretically be full articles (if, for instance, the material on the university's Othonian period became so copious as to justify a split-off article), so I think it's more in line with WP:ENDURE to anticipate that.  <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ross was one of 7 Germans out of 23 teaching staff - drop "out"?
 * That doesn't read right to me: I'm happy to be counter-argued with examples of this usage in good sources, but it doesn't feel idiomatic. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 18:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * inscriptions that he had discovered himself - not sure "himself" is needed?
 * Agreed that it's not needed as such, but it does have an emphatic function which I think is justified here. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * In 1834, he published the first volume of Inscriptiones Graecae Ineditae - this section is "Professorship at Athens (1837–1843)". Move? or add "had" ie 'In 1834, he had published'?
 * Added the "had". It's not great that it's out of chronological order, but it doesn't fit well into its "proper" place in the preceding section, as that's all about physical archaeological work, and to some extent the real focus here is Ross's dithering between 1834 and 1842 on the second volume. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * the surveyor Karl Ritter - is not the geographer Carl Ritter?
 * Yes, though that's not apparent from the source I had. I've found another one and added it plus a bit more detail. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * island we possess … for more - fix ellipsis
 * Fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * He subsequently travelled through the Greek islands - Ross
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * University of Halle - Martin Luther University of Halle–Wittenberg the dash instead of hyphen is causing redlink
 * Should be fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ross died by suicide[10] on 6 August 1859. - add location so it's cited
 * Done. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Note b Earlier removals of archaeological material from Acropolis - the Acropolis?
 * Fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 78 Junker 1995, p. 755–756. - pp
 * 80 Fatsea 2017, p. 65–68. - pp
 * 91 Berlin-Brandenburg_Academy_of_Sciences 2015. - remove underscores
 * Kitromilides, Paschalis M. - tweak alpha order
 * Baumeister, August - add authorlink
 * Kunze, Max - editorlink
 * Vanavalis, Panos (ed.) x2 - is different fellow to Panos Valavanis?
 * Nope, he's a typo. Fixed. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Ephor-General of Antiquities 1834-1843 - I don't understand the dates?
 * Should have ended 1836 - now does. There's an interregnum after Ross; I think I'd mistakenly put his end date as Pittakis's start date. <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Category:People from Segeberg
 * Category:German expatriates in Greece
 * All very understandable and reasonable. All ref and cat points acted upon. Thank you for a very sharp set of comments: you've picked up things (such as the Valavanis typo) that got under the radar in a few previous visits to this process! <b style="color:#7F007F">UndercoverClassicist</b> T·C 19:30, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Thanks, very happy with all above and so to add my s'port. JennyOz (talk) 05:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2023 (UTC)