Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/M-1 (Michigan highway)/archive1


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted by GrahamColm 14:54, 1 January 2013.

M-1 (Michigan highway)

 * Nominator(s):  Imzadi 1979  →   07:57, 16 November 2012 (UTC)

I am nominating this for featured article because this is about Michigan's Main Street, The Father Road, the first urban National Scenic Byway and only All-American Road in Michigan. Its history as a roadway originates in the Detroit Fire of 1805, but as a transportation route, it dates back to pre-colonization days. Woodward Avenue is the number one road in Michigan in a number of categories.  Imzadi 1979  →   07:57, 16 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Support reviewed at ACR WikiProject Highways/Assessment/A-Class Review/M-1 (Michigan highway) and feel it meets the criteria. --Rschen7754 07:59, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support - Article meets FA criteria. However, I would suggest the title gets changed to Woodward Avenue as that appears to be the primary subject of the article and the common name.  Dough 48  72  22:03, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Support. I, too, looked over the article at ACR; I feel it meets the criteria. –Fredddie™ 06:16, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Comments While I'd never heard of this road before reading the article, it appears to be very comprehensive article. However, its prose needs a bit of work. I have the following suggestions, but I'd also suggest a more general copyedit with a focus on ensuring that the sentences in each para flow together well in the 'Route description' and 'Cultural significance' sections; the current material is heavy going as the sentences don't always work well together.
 * "The highway follows "Detroit's Main Street" from Detroit northwesterly to Pontiac." - how can the highway follow a street?
 * Highways follow streets all of the time in the US. In this case, M-1, the highway, runs along Woodward Avenue, the street. BUS M-28 follows Lakeshore Drive, Division and Ready streets, County Road, Silver, Jackson and Main streets, and Teal Lake Avenue... all streets, for another example. In both cases, the highway designation follows a route along a set of city streets, or in the case of M-1, a single street. I hope this clears that up. —Imzadi1979
 * I'm afraid it doesn't at all. The "The highway follows "Detroit's Main Street" " appears to be refering to a conceptual 'street' rather than an actual road, and is jargon. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "The avenue has been listed as the Automotive Heritage Trail, an All-American Road by the U.S. Department of Transportation, and it has been designated a Michigan Heritage Route by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT)." - this is a bit awkward
 * Yes, but the two concepts are related. All-American Roads are a subtype of National Scenic Byway, and most NSBs are also designated through the analogous state program, which in this case is the Michigan Heritage Route. I split the sentence in twain, but I'm not sure what more you would like done there. —Imzadi1979
 * "as the Automotive Heritage Trail, an All-American Road by the U.S. Department of Transportation" is not great wording. How about "The U.S. Department of Transportation has listed the highway as the Automotive Heritage Trail under its All-American Road scheme" or something to that effect? (I imagine that you can improve on may suggestion here!). Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked and added.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "and provides access to countless businesses in the area" - it's obviously possible to count the businesses, and probably this wouldn't be difficult for a government agency to do if they have the addresses of businesses registered in the area.
 * Changing to "many" then. —Imzadi1979
 * "The name Woodward Avenue has become synonymous with Detroit, cruising culture and the automotive industry." - what cruising culture is needs to be explained here (via a wikilink, ideally)
 * Wikilinked to the Woodward Dream Cruise, since there isn't any other article just on the phenomenon. —Imzadi1979
 * "It followed the route of the Saginaw Trail, an Indian trail that linked Detroit with Pontiac, Flint, and Saginaw; with the Mackinaw Trail, the Saginaw also connected north to the Straits of Mackinac at the tip of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan." - the second half of this sentence doesn't flow on from the first half; I'd suggest splitting this into two sentences.
 * Done. —Imzadi1979
 * "Woodward Avenue is home to the first mile (1.6 km) of concrete roadway in the country." - the use of 'home' here seems odd (the roadway obviously isn't going anywhere); I'd suggest "Woodward Avenue included the first mile (1.6 km) of concrete roadway in the country" which is clearer.
 * I'm not going to rehash an avenue of disagreement this from the H-58 FAC; tweaked. —Imzadi1979
 * I'm not a fan of the new wording either to be honest - "Woodward Avenue was the location of the first mile (1.6 km) of concrete roadway in the country" implies that the road was concreted along its entire length, which doesn't seem to have been the case Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, I used the past tense here because most of the roadway surface is asphalt now, at least on the surface. (MDOT will build a highway out of concrete and topcoat it with asphalt, so I can't say for sure that the historic mile isn't still concrete underneath the asphalt visible on satellite photos or Google's Street View.) I don't see how that wording can imply the whole roadway is/was concrete when it's many times longer than a single mile.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I see your point, and think that I was wrong about that - the current wording is fine Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "When the state created the State Trunkline Highway System " - watch for duplication
 * Tweaked. —Imzadi1979
 * "Since 1970, it has carried the M-1 designation. The roadway carried streetcar lines from the 1860s until the 1950s; " - ditto ('carried')
 * Tweaked. —Imzadi1979
 * "the northern edge of the park is bounded by Adams Avenue, which is where state maintenance begins." - that's a bit awkward
 * Tweaked. —Imzadi1979
 * "The signs took 18 months to design and fabricate in consultations with the local communities," - typo
 * I don't see a typo there. There were consultations with separate groups, plural, so that is correct. —Imzadi1979
 * "In consultations" isn't good wording - "In consultation with local communities" says what you're trying to get at as it doesn't limit the number of consultation processes. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "WA3 is offering replicas of the unique signs to discourage theft and to raise funds for future sign maintenance.[21] In addition to funding maintenance, proceeds from the signs and other merchandise is used to support the Woodward Avenue Beautification Fund.[22]" - this is a bit repeditive and over-complex
 * Copy edited, but its not a simple matter of the sign profits funding just one item here. —Imzadi1979
 * That's an improvement, but you could drop the new 'they' and improve the sentence more. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "the sounds of church bells and horse hooves were common along Woodward Avenue in the early 20th century." - I'm not sure what the purpose of this sentence is.
 * Reworked that a bit, drawing in a little more content from the source and the next paragraph to better highlight what one journalist called "a precarious balance between the sacred and the profane" in terms of the mix of religion, music, and alcohol in the area. —Imzadi1979
 * To put it frankly, this sentence is is meaningless gumph, and I really think it should be removed (it's also obviously wrong given that the churchbells would have only occasionally have been wrung). Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I disagree. The sources made a point of including that bit of color. I've tweaked it, but I won't remove it because the next sentence about the jazz clubs is tying into, and contrasting, with that.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Sorry, but this is just gumph. Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "During the 1940s, ministers lobbied for a law to prevent the issuance of additional liquor licenses in their neighborhood. The area, while known for churches, also had plenty of bars and even burlesque shows as late as the 1970s" - these sentences don't work well together. Am I right in reading it to mean that the ministers' lobbying wasn't successful?
 * See above; they were only partially successful though. —Imzadi1979
 * "Employees at the plant used the streetcar system along Woodward to get to work, unaffected by the additional distance to the new plant." - I imagine that they were affected; they just had a tram to catch rather than a walk
 * Tweaked. —Imzadi1979
 * "The annual event draws thousands of classic car owners and admirers from all over the United States and the world to the Metro Detroit area to celebrate Detroit's automotive history." - this reads like PR-speak (surely most of them are there to check out the historic cars rather than to purposefully 'celebrate Detroit's automotive history')
 * Just repeating what the sources say. They point out the wide geographic scope of the attendees. They also point out that the history is a part of the event. —Imzadi1979
 * I'm really not at all convinced to be honest; wording like this is meaningless as it can't be proven (what evidence is there that the spectators are deliberately 'celebrating Detroit's automotive history'? - is there research into the motivations of attendees which underpins the statement in the source?) Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The wording was altered in the copy edit by Juliancolton, so...  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * It's still pretty much there, and remains unprovable PR speak Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "The event evokes nostalgia of the 1950s and 1960s, when it was common for young drivers to "cruise" with their cars on Woodward Avenue." - already discussed in the previous para (and why the "cruise"?)
 * It's repeated to tie the event to the previous discussion one paragraph up. —Imzadi1979
 * Yes, that's my concern; anyone reading this will have read the previous para which says the same thing. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "Detroit created 120-foot-wide (37 m) rights-of-way for the principal streets of the city in 1805." - this reads a bit oddly (eg, it says that the city created the rights of way)
 * The city did create them though; they are the government entity that would have set aside a right-of-way for a municipal street and then maintain said roadway at that time. —Imzadi1979
 * The city government created it, not the city. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * They are one and the same though. We routinely say "The state did X" meaning the state government. It's like using "Lansing" or "The White House" to refer to actions by officials with a Michigan government agency or someone in the Executive Office of the President of the United States.
 * This type of usage is almost never applied to city governments in my experiance (particularly in relation to activities undertaken within their own jurisdiction). Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Well, in my experience, it is. Would "City of Detroit" be acceptable? --Rschen7754 10:06, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * If that was the name of the city/town's government at the time, yes. Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "This street plan was devised by Augustus Woodward and others following a devastating fire in Detroit,[1] on mandate from the territorial governor to improve on the previous plan." - 'on mandate' sounds odd
 * That's what the source used though... just parroting the wording in the paraphrase to avoid misrepresentation of what the author said. —Imzadi1979
 * "with a mandate" is much better English Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * "In 1996, though, the bypass would be renamed Woodward Avenue" - watch for passive voice
 * Passive voice is not incorrect though, but tweaked all the same. —Imzadi1979
 * "the remaining cars were sent to Mexico City." - were they donated as this wording suggests?
 * I don't read any suggestion of donation in that sentence. The sources I have don't explicitly discuss a completed sale though. The one cited here says, "The last Woodward streetcar track was taken up in 1956, the cars were shipped to Mexico City, and Detroit's transit system became one that ran entirely on rubber tires." The Metro Times article says that the mayor "urged [the] City Council to sell the city's recently purchased fleet of modern streetcars to Mexico City," which implies a sale, but that source never explicitly says that the were sold, just shipped there. —Imzadi1979
 * OK, fair enough. Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The 'Future' section doesn't read well - the sentences jump around a bit, and the chronology isn't clear. This could also be merged with the 'Streetcars and subways' section given that its entirely focused on proposals to reintroduce light rail
 * In the future, should the plans be totally cancelled or completed, it will be merged up into that subsection of the history. For now though, it is not "history" yet, but still something on-going. As for now, the text has been rearranged a bit. —Imzadi1979
 * OK, and the new wording is a big improvement. However, I think that the para would benefit greatly from an introductory sentence Nick-D (talk) 09:33, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Added.  Imzadi 1979  →   16:57, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Check for over-linking - for instance, World War II is linked at least three times Nick-D (talk) 11:09, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The second link was removed, but given the distance between the first and the third, the latter was retained as a link. In other cases, items may be linked in this article once on first appearance in a section, which is allowable given the relative size of the sections. Did any others stand out? I know that there is a lot of blue in places, but there are a lot of specific locations, businesses, districts that all have articles that should be linked.
 * Replied above.  Imzadi 1979  →   15:12, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I have an editor contacted to give the prose some additional polish, btw. He should be looking in shortly.  Imzadi 1979  →   15:41, 26 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I actually don't think the text needs that much work. I made a few changes, but everything seems tight and well-worded otherwise. I think some of the wording may be too concise to the point of being choppy, but it's not overwhelming and it could just be differences in personal preference. I'll take a closer look as soon as I get a chance, but I foresee supporting the article right now. Juliancolton (talk) 02:48, 27 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Because the support seems (??) to mostly come from involved editors, I took a brief look (at the lead). My prose isn't the finest, but no egregious problems stood out that I could jump all over.  I did link plat because I only heard that word for the first time in ... my older years.   If you all think that is WP:OVERLINKing, pls revert.  I didn't check anything else.  Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 00:17, 29 November 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Sorry, but I can't support the promotion of an article which deliberately uses vague wording and some includes meaningless statements to FA class. This isn't an attempt to enforce my preferences on others or whatever, but is based on what I think FA criterion 1(a) means. As noted above, I think that this article has a lot going for it, but the prose issues here are problematic in my view. Nick-D (talk) 09:50, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * You're opposing over three disagreements in the prose? --Rschen7754 09:53, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Yes, I am per the above discussion of these concerns. I don't post 'oppose' comments lightly, but this article can't be an example of Wikipedia's best work if it deliberately includes meaningless statements. Nick-D (talk) 10:00, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * That's a very bad use of an oppose, in my opinion; it seems like you're trying to force your opinion on the article. Will be commenting above. --Rschen7754 10:02, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Commented on one; the other two seem to be WP:IDONTLIKEIT. --Rschen7754 10:07, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * On reviewing the copy editing, the overall quality of the prose also remains patchy; for instance most of the way through the para starting 'The area around Woodward was once nicknamed "Piety Hill".' we're again told that "The area, while known for churches"; the next para states "Curfews across the river in Windsor, Ontario, meant that many patrons during the war years were Canadian in addition to the Americans who worked in the factories of the Detroit area." (this implies that only the Americans who worked in those factories visited this area, which doesn't seem likely), and the next sentence states "Since the 1990s, the theatre district has undergone its own renaissance" without the previous/other renaissance comprised ever being identified in the article. The first para of the 'Woodward Dream Cruise' section starts with "Starting in 1848, when the roadway was converted from logs to planks, young carriage drivers would race along Woodward Avenue" (passive voice for no clear reason). I note also that while the article strongly stresses the importance of the automotive industry to the street (and, to some extent vice-versa), it only has half a paragraph on what the relationship actually involved (the first half of the final para in the 'Religion, entertainment, and cars' section) plus a few passing mentions in the 'Route description' section. Nick-D (talk) 10:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I perhaps should have looked beyond the lead :) Sandy Georgia  (Talk) 15:45, 30 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Pertaining to the three specific sentences mentioned above:
 * The municipality now known as the City of Detroit would have been the Town of Detroit in 1805, so I revised that sentence to use the formal municipal name with a footnote/cite backing that detail.
 * As for the church bells/horse hooves line, that is there intentionally to contrast with the next sentence in the paragraph; the sentence isn't "meaningless" and it provides "color". The lack of color is something usually noted in highway FACs, so it's surprising to me when a reviewer calls for its removal here.
 * "celebrating Detroit's automotive history", is valid considering this is a major roadway in the Motor City, the historic home of the American automotive industry and the major American auto manufacturers. Given the connection between that industry and the city, in my opinion, it's not meaningless to parrot that phrasing from the various books and news articles.
 * About some of the other comments more recently added:
 * There are auto assembly plants in Canada, so there were and are plenty of factories across the river to employ Canadians without them commuting to the US.
 * renaissance... tweaked.
 * Active voice is great, when the actor is known. In the case of the 1848 sentence, the source doesn't not specify who converted the road from logs to planks. If you have an alternate wording, please suggest it.
 * This is an article about a state highway; it isn't about the Detroit auto industry. Yes, this is the "Automotive Heritage Trail" All-American Road, but the article here follows the weight applied to that subject in the RSs used. This highway, and the street it uses, touch upon other subjects in the Motor City.
 *  Imzadi 1979  →   10:34, 3 December 2012 (UTC)
 * In regards to your last point, this article stresses the importance of the road to the automobile industry, but hardly mentions what this involved. If your current sources don't describe this, I think that you need to find more sources to flesh out the kind of claims the article makes (eg, if this road is historically significant to the industry and/or vice-versa, you need to explain why, and discuss how this evolved). My point in regards to the "curfews across the river in Windsor, Ontario, meant that many patrons during the war years were Canadian in addition to the Americans who worked in the factories of the Detroit area" wording is that if read literally it states that the only Americans who went to these clubs were automotive factory workers, which seems unlikely. The 1848 sentence could read "Young carriage drivers raced one another along Woodward Avenue after the roadway was converted from logs to planks in 1848" or similar. Note that these are only examples of the prose problems. Nick-D (talk) 06:18, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All of the applicable locations on FHWA's Woodward Avenue Auto History Tour are mentioned in the text. The agency's two-day suggested tour includes a private residence located off the main street, a cemetery that is the final resting place for many early auto pioneers, and a private school that's tangentially related; those three stops were omitted. All of the notable landmarks connected to the history of the auto industry along Woodward Avenue and adjacent side streets are listed then based on a survey of the sources. (The Woodward Avenue Action Association, stewards of the National Scenic Byway/All-American Road designation also list the Walter P. Chrysler Museum in their pamphlet, but that site is about 4 miles away from M-1's northern terminus.)  Imzadi 1979  →   02:04, 10 December 2012 (UTC)
 * OK, but that's not my concern: the article includes text such as "if Broadway = Theater and Rodeo Drive = High Fashion and Jewelry, then Woodward = the Automobile", "Woodward Avenue put the world on wheels", yet only briefly explains what this connection actually involved. Nick-D (talk) 07:46, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Would you mind clarifying what your oppose is based on? Tone, prose, and/or not giving full details for some of the cultural relevance? --Rschen7754 07:54, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * All of those options, I'm afraid: the article is vague about what's apparently one of the road's main claims to fame, the prose is unclear at times, and the tone is not appropriate for a FA in parts (I also agree with HJ Mitchell's comment below about over-reliance on people who are out to praise the road). Regards, Nick-D (talk) 08:05, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Two questions: so you're saying that nothing short of a complete rewrite will solve the problems? Also, with checking sources, are you sure that there are sources out there that reflect negatively upon the road and its associated culture? --Rschen7754 08:22, 12 December 2012 (UTC)
 * That's not what I'm saying at all. In response: 1) I think that the article needs a genuinely comprehensive copyedit to weed out flabby or imprecise wording such as the examples I provided above. The 'bones' of the article are essentially OK. 2) Where have I called for sources with a negative opinion on the road? My concern here is the use of vacuous quotes and paraphrased passages from people who are saying or writing gumph. Nick-D (talk) 09:58, 12 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm afraid I agree with Nick here. I read through the "cultural significance" section, which was certainly interesting, but the tone makes it read more like it was written to entertain than to inform. I think part of it is the over-reliance on quotes from people who are obviously going to say nice things about it and the combination of anecdotes and other things that (while interesting) are bordering on trivia. For example, the factoid about replica signs being sold to deter theft and raise money looks out of place. That's not to say it should be removed entirely, but I think it would work better if it were cut down and used more creatively. I'm not going to oppose a such because Nick already has and I haven't read the whole article, but I think a little attention to the style bearing in mind the target audience of an encyclopaedia is needed. HJ Mitchell  &#124;  Penny for your thoughts?  21:44, 7 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Since this isn't a matter of content, but of presentation/phrasing, I will ping my trusted copy editors again to re-engage with the article and comment here. However, my WiFi and Internet access is spotty/inconvenient at best these days.  Imzadi 1979  →   06:07, 8 December 2012 (UTC)
 * I have made a copyedit but still stand behind my support of the article. I generally don't focus on cultural history or points of interest (though I really should a bit more) so I can't say that that matches my writing style, and Imzadi1979 and I are different people; however, I also see nothing inherently wrong with the entire "cultural significance" section. --Rschen7754 10:37, 8 December 2012 (UTC)


 * I will be reviewing this article in the coming day or two and adding my support or opposition accordingly. Given the age of this nomination I wanted to insert a placeholder to prevent a closure before then. -  Floydian  τ ¢  04:25, 20 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Comments (neither opposing nor supporting at the moment)
 * Lead
 * You mention that Woodward Avenue is an All-American Road, but the accompanying link shows it as simply a National Scenic Bypass. I'm assuming that article is the incorrect one, but figured its worth bringing up.
 * Corrected the other page.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "Later, it was part of US Highway 10 (US 10) after the creation of the United States Numbered Highway System." - I wonder if "following" would be more suitable here?
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 


 * Route description
 * "The plaza is regarded as the birthplace of the Ford Motor Company,[10] and it is located near Cobo Center and the Renaissance Center, headquarters for General Motors (GM)." - The second clause is dependant, so I don't believe it's necessary to repeat the it since the independent clause already establishes the subject.
 * I need to let this one stew around a bit to come up with a different wording then. It's only dependent in the sense that the pronoun relies on the first half, but it has a subject (it) and and a verb (is located) so it can be a separate sentence on its own, making it an independent clause.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "After that historic district, the avenue travels through the middle of Grand Circus Park;" - I had to check Grand Circus Park after reading this to see whether or not it was also a historic district. I can't think of a better way to word this though without completely redoing the final two sentences of that paragraph.
 * "home of the Major League Baseball Detroit Tigers and the National Football League's Detroit Lions, respectively." - Some parallelism issues here I believe... One instance is possessive and the other is not.
 * Changed both to possessive.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "The DIA and the nearby Detroit Historical Museum each have exhibits featuring the city's automotive history" -> "The DIA and the nearby Detroit Historical Museum each feature exhibits showcasing the city's automotive history"
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "left turns along this section of roadway are made using a Michigan left maneuver using the U-turn crossovers in the median." -> "left turns along this section of roadway are made by performing a Michigan left maneuver using the U-turn crossovers in the median." (gets rid of the double "using", which I don't believe is the correct verb in the first case)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "Further north in Pleasant Ridge, the north-northwesterly path of Woodward Avenue changes as the road turns to the northwest." - Looking over the road on Google Maps, this curve seems almost unnoticeable. Is it worth mentioning?
 * I think so, if only because the road does appear to have a bend in angles when viewed on the KML-based map links.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "The highway crosses the River Rouge and returns to its original routing north of Maple (15 Mile[16]) Road.[7][9]" - Wouldn't it be better to lop that citation [16] in with the other two?
 * The citation in question only cites what's in the parentheses, so moving it to the end would imply it also cites the rest of the paragraph, so no, I'd prefer to leave it as is.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "That suburb's downtown is centered on the intersection with Long Lake Road, and Woodward passes between a pair of golf courses north of downtown." - There's some redundancy here, and two separate thoughts best separated by a period or semi-colon -> "That suburb's downtown is centered on the intersection with Long Lake Road; Woodward passes between a pair of golf courses north of there." (perhaps?)
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "At the intersection with Square Lake Road, M-1 terminates; Woodward Avenue continues northwesterly into Pontiac carrying the BL I-75 and BUS US 24 designations. Woodward terminates in downtown Pontiac after the two directions of the boulevard diverge and form a one-way loop around the city's business district." - I'd r4earrange this a bit, as the two Woodward's in this chunk of text are slightly repetitive. -> "At the intersection with Square Lake Road, M-1 terminates. Woodward Avenue continues northwesterly into Pontiac carrying the BL I-75 and BUS US 24 designations; it terminates after the two directions of the boulevard diverge and form a one-way loop around the city's business district."
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 


 * Cultural significance
 * "The area also had plenty of bars and even burlesque shows as late as the 1970s.[8] Nightclubs hosted a burgeoning music scene in the early days of rock 'n roll.[31]" - switch the order of these. The early days of rock and roll are the late 40s and early 50s, s I think it improves the continuity to have the rock and roll sentence after the repealing of the liquor licence law.
 * Done, good idea.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * "Employees at the plant used the streetcar system along Woodward to get to work,[8] and these lines also provided transportation options to assembly plant workers affected by gas rationing during World War II." - I'd get rid of the comma / and, and change it to a semi-colon.
 * Tweaked.  Imzadi 1979  → 
 * The whole Woodward Dream Cruise section is odd to me, as it begins with a paragraph on the history of street racing, then moves on to the second paragraph about the cruise. Aside from driving, there doesn't seem to be a connection between the two, unless the cruise was started to make that connection to history.
 * Yes, but the Cruise's big draw is related to the nostaglia of the 1950s and 1960s. The one article about the history of the road brings up the 19th century history in connection to the event, while a whole book on the cruising culture around Woodward Avenue explores the history of cruising in the 1950s and 1960s before exploring the specifics of the Dream Cruise's foundation as a one-time fundraiser turned annual event.  Imzadi 1979  → 

--  Floydian  τ ¢  16:20, 22 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Replied above so far.  Imzadi 1979  →   01:45, 23 December 2012 (UTC)
 * Everything above looks good. Your explanations for the few things you didn't change make sense to me so I have no issue leaving those. I'm continuing my review below:


 * History
 * "In spite of the attempts..." - I'm not sure this is the correct verb to use. The way you describe the context leading up to this, it seems various sections each came to have their own short-lived local names, rather than attempts to rename the road, but correct me if I'm wrong.
 * "and the initial roadway to connect Detroit north to Pontiac along the Saginaw Trail was started in 1817 by laying down logs and filling in the gaps with clay or sand." - may be worth throwing in a link to / mention of Corduroy road.
 * "The Michigan Legislature authorized the construction of a private plank road with tolls to connect Detroit with Pontiac in 1848. By the next year, 16-foot-wide (4.9 m) and 3-inch-thick (7.6 cm) oak planks were laid along the road from Detroit to Pontiac" - repetitive use of Detroit with/to Pontiac.
 * "The first automobile was driven in Detroit by Charles Brady King along Woodward Avenue on March 3, 1896, a few weeks before Henry Ford drove his first car in the city." - this alludes to the first vehicle ever, which is something you have to be careful with given the whole auto history connection of this road. I'm assuming this was the first in Detroit since the first was driven a few years earlier in Springfield, MA... in which case it should the "The first automobile driven in Detroit was by Charles Brady King..."
 * "The first crows nest traffic tower in the US was installed at the intersection of Woodward and Michigan avenues on October 9, 1917." - Can't say I've ever heard of one of these things before. Should be linked or explained.
 * "The crows nest was replaced in October 1920 with the world's first four-way traffic light,[40] and since 1924, Woodward Avenue has hosted America's Thanksgiving Parade,[54] the second oldest Thanksgiving Day parade in the United States." - I'd move the crow's nest half up with the above sentence, and separate out the parade stuff into a new sentence, being two separate thoughts.
 * "Later, on September 18, 1886, a separate electrified line through Highland Park, the Highland Park Railway, was added that ran along Woodward Avenue." - this has a weird flow with the two instances of "Highland Park" so close together... perhaps reorganize it as "Later, on September 18, 1886, a separate electrified line, the Highland Park Railway, was added that ran along Woodward Avenue through Highland Park."


 * Future
 * No grammar/structure/flow issues that I can see.
 * You mention that the feds pulled out of the longer line in favour of the BRT. Would this be built along Woodward or elsewhere? generally these also require the same degree of street reconstruction and modification as an LRT. If the BRT wouldn't be along Woodward, perhaps just mention that to add some closure to the subject.


 * Junction list
 * Looks good


 * KML
 * I notice the KML only shows the state-maintained portion of Woodward, yet the article still has some coverage of the ends and the old section through Birmingham. Maybe include these three sections as non-red lines?


 * Images
 * All check out. The two fair use are acceptable; however I assume one will be replaced once the monuments are up and a replaceable free photo can be taken.
 * Look at that nose on Woodward!
 * Awesome work getting the OTRS on the LRT rendition!
 * Captions all check out

-- I think that's all. Pending support following a handful of fixes / responses. -  Floydian  τ ¢  23:27, 26 December 2012 (UTC)
 * The last set of prose suggestions implemented. (A recent news article does say that Woodward will get a dedicated bus lane, so I added that. Feel free to tweak the placement as desired.) The updated KML should be active soon. Thanks for the reviews.  Imzadi 1979  →   08:17, 27 December 2012 (UTC)


 * Support - with the above changes made, I believe the prose and style are up to par. I checked a few citations at random and found no issues; however, I did not check the consistency of the citations themselves, as I assume this was done at the ACR stage. -  Floydian  τ ¢  18:09, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Delegate's closing comment - This has been a difficult decision, but I have decided to archive this long-running FAC since there is no clear consensus for promotion. No doubt the article will be back at FAC soon, and with many of the issues already resolved I hope a clear consensus will be reached. Graham Colm (talk) 14:53, 1 January 2013 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.