Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/M-1 (Michigan highway)/archive2


 * The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 03:02, 3 July 2017.

M-1 (Michigan highway)

 * Nominator(s):  Imzadi 1979  →   03:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

This article is about what is arguably the most important state-level highway in Michigan. It's the only All-American Road in the state and home to many of Detroit's historic sites as well as the city's entertainment districts. It's been a state highway for over a century. I think it's a subject worthy of evaluation for inclusion among Wikipedia's best work.  Imzadi 1979  →   03:10, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support - I reviewed this article at the previous FAC and have reviewed the changes since then and still feel this article meets the FA criteria.  Dough   4872   03:18, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I reviewed this article several years ago at the ACR stage, and commented extensively in the previous FAC. While I felt that there were some nitpicks that could have made the article better, I felt that the article was FA quality. I still feel the same way today, even after reading through the controversial Culture section. However, I do have a few comments:
 * Later, the street was home to the jazz clubs of the 1910s and 1920s - this is a bit vague/awkward. All the clubs? And just those of the 1910s/1920s?
 * During the 1940s, ministers lobbied for a law to prevent the issuance of additional liquor licenses in their neighborhood; the law was overturned in 1950 - missing context, or perhaps the order of the last 3 sentences in the paragraph should be rearranged
 * I think I clarified these two points together, trying to tie in the notion of transition from "sacred" to "profane" as noted in the quote at the end of the paragraph.  Imzadi 1979  →   11:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * undergone a renaissance - a bit vague
 * Examples added.  Imzadi 1979  →   11:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * important entertainment fixtures - according to?
 * Added a citation, tweaking the wording a bit to match.  Imzadi 1979  →   11:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * The district is the most compact collection in any American city - needs an "according to"
 * Added.  Imzadi 1979  →   11:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "huge crowds" - be more specific or drop it entirely. Rschen7754 07:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I moved up the specific example from later in the paragraph to clarify. Hopefully this helps, .  Imzadi 1979  →   11:04, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Support - issues resolved. --Rschen7754 02:27, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. - Dank (push to talk)
 * "enough so that two of them were stolen in the first months after installation": There's a continuing discussion at FAC over whose opinions and actions are significant enough to warrant inclusion in featured articles. Some people want to see only those opinions with the highest levels of gravitas; others believe that polls of popular opinion are just as inclusion-worthy. No one has been arguing that the actions of vandals count as data to back up opinions. Some of the paragraph feels a little bit promotional to me, but it's not my call.
 * Everything else looks great, so far. Back soon. - Dank (push to talk) 19:40, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the work so far. I've removed most mentions of theft-related issues to the signs, but since they are sold to support roadway maintenance, I don't feel it's too promotional to retain that angle, . Thoughts?  Imzadi 1979  →   21:47, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Now I don't have a problem with it at all. - Dank (push to talk) 22:55, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * "Through various approvals in 2011, and subsequent changes including a bus rapid transit system with a dedicated Woodward Avenue bus lane.": Not a sentence.
 * "The line was to have 20 different stations serving 12 stops", "The line will have": The line has opened, so "was to have" is wrong, and "will have" should be replaced by how many it has.
 * Support on prose per my standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 00:19, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Image review There is some incomplete ALT text. I am guessing that it is supposed to be completed by the caption, yeah? Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:31, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * File:Michigan 1 map.png: Use of image is obviously appropriate. Wondering if the file may merit a better name, but not strictly relevant here. What is the provenance and copyright status of the basemap? The file description is a bit unclear.
 * File:M-1.svg: License and use OK.
 * File:DetroitWoodwardAvespringsummerday.jpg: License(s) and use seem OK to me. Is that really the starting point of a highway?
 * File:Wayne State U-Woodward Avenue.jpg: License and use OK.
 * File:M-1 at I-696.jpg: License and use OK. Looks already more like a highway in that point.
 * File:M-1 in Bloomfield Hills.png: License and use OK, curiosity wonders about the lack of EXIF.
 * File:Woodward tribute.jpg: Same issue as below, although it's closer to meeting NFCC#8.
 * File:Woodwardsign.jpg: Concerned that the non-free image does not meet the f its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding NFCC#8 standard; it certainly does not help me understand anything about this highway.
 * File:Fox theatre Central United Methodist church.jpg: License and use OK.
 * File:Woodward Dream Cruise Batmobile.jpg: License and use OK.
 * File:Old map 1807 plan.jpg: License and use OK, might want to add a commons:Template:PD-scan template to dot the i's.
 * File:Judge Woodward.jpg: Use OK, but how do we know that the image is free to use?
 * File:Woodard Avenue & Windsor.png: License and use OK, might want to add a commons:Template:PD-scan template to dot the i's.
 * File:Woodward Ave Detroit 1942.jpg: Use OK, license in source a bit vague.
 * File:Woodward Avenue in winter attire, Detroit, Mich.png: Use OK, license in source a bit vague.
 * File:Test train at Campus Martius station, May 2017.jpg: License and use OK.
 * Numbering your points, for specific replies:
 * 1. The naming scheme for the map files is over a decade old, and as time allows, the maps on the Michigan state highways (M-) are being replaced to match the updated style used by other articles with a better naming convention for the new map file. The entire map, save the inset, is from the same dataset, and the result is entirely the creation of the cartographer who made the map, again save the inset.
 * 3. I'm unsure of the meaning behind the query "Is that really the starting point of a highway?" That is south of the M-1 segment of Woodward Avenue, which doesn't start until the intersection at Adams Avenue on the north side of Grand Circus Park. Not all state highways are rural roadways or freeways, and many follow what otherwise appear to be city streets in whole or in part. The photo is included to illustrate the southern segment of Woodward Avenue, which is discussed in the article in the adjacent paragraph.
 * 6. That photo was taken by me with an old iPhone and then processed in Photoshop CS6 to correct the perspective and color tint from the car windshield. I believe the phone didn't record the same range of EXIF data that the current models do, and what it did record, Photoshop may have discarded in the editing.
 * 7 & 8. These two images are illustrative of the topic (sign, tribute) discussed immediately adjacent to their usage.
 * 11. Added.
 * 13. Already had that template.

As for the alt text (which isn't a FA requirement), yes, it's supposed to be supplemented by the captions.  Imzadi 1979  →   21:47, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Eumerus. Hard to spell name? Anyhow, the query "Is that really the starting point of a highway?" was more an offtopic curiosity question seeing as as highways are a fairly alien thing for me. The problem with #8 is that it's not at all clear that the article would lose much if at all if it were removed. And non-free images are generally only kept if there is a good "keep" case. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 22:26, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * Blame auto correct sneaking back in on that one, . As for the sign, it's illustrative of the National Scenic Byway/All-American Road status of the roadway, which is why it was put in the section discussing it, although it could be argued to be just as identification-based as the main M-1 marker in the infobox.  Imzadi 1979  →   22:49, 22 May 2017 (UTC)
 * I don't know if that logo is particularly helpful. The signs, sure, if that highway is well used many people driving on it are bound to see them. But the logo strikes me as useless. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 15:01, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Support Comments from Moisejp: I'm close to supporting. Just a few comments, the first of which is below.
 * Some inconsistency of serial vs. non-serial comma, with a few examples below:
 * (NS) "The street is one of the five principal avenues of Detroit, along with Michigan, Grand River, Gratiot and Jefferson avenues."
 * (NS) "Along the way, it passes several important and historic sites, including notable buildings like One Woodward Avenue, the Guardian Building and The Qube."
 * (NS) "In addition to music clubs, many of Detroit's other major entertainment venues are located on or near Woodward in downtown Detroit, including the Fox Theatre, Majestic Theater and the rest of the theater district,"
 * (S) "ll of M-1 north of I-75 is listed on the National Highway System,[5][6] a network of roads important to the country's economy, defense, and mobility."
 * (S) "South of I-94, Woodward heads through the Cultural Center Historic District, which includes the campus of Wayne State University, the Detroit Public Library, and the Detroit Institute of Arts;" Moisejp (talk) 03:51, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Religion, entertainment, and cars: Streetcars and subways: Those are all of my comments. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 05:16, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * "Nightclubs along Woodward hosted a burgeoning music scene in the early days of rock 'n roll,[34] and the area also had plenty of bars and even burlesque shows as late as the 1970s." Is "even" necessary here? It sounds possibly non-neutral. Moisejp (talk) 05:02, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * In the end it sounds like no subways were built. Would a better name for this section be "Streetcars and other public transportation"? This would also include the buses that are mentioned in this section and take emphasis off the non-existent subways. Just an idea.
 * One other thing: there are some places where multiple instances of "also" are clumped together. You could try to use some synonyms such as "similarly", "likewise", "as well", "additionally", "too".
 * (Lead) "It has also been designated a Pure Michigan Byway by the Michigan Department of Transportation (MDOT). The roadway was also included in the MotorCities National Heritage Area designated by the US Congress in 1998."
 * (Lead) "The Saginaw Trail also connected to the Mackinaw Trail, which ran north to the Straits of Mackinac at the tip of the Lower Peninsula of Michigan. In the age of the auto trails, Woodward Avenue was also part of the Theodore Roosevelt International Highway that connected Portland, Maine, with Portland, Oregon through Ontario in Canada. It was also a part of the Dixie Highway, which connected Michigan with Florida. Woodward Avenue was the location of the first mile (1.6 km) of concrete roadway in the country.
 * (Woodward Dream Cruise) "The numerous drive-ins, each with its dedicated local teenaged clientele, were also popular. Woodward also had numerous car dealerships and automobile accessory shops in the age of the muscle car which completed the formula for young adults to "cruise", race and hang out along the road." Moisejp (talk) 06:01, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Thanks for the review, . I've acted on your suggestions. We should have serial commas throughout now, and some judicious applications of editing or synonyms should help.  Imzadi 1979  →  13:43, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

Cool. It all looks good now. Moisejp (talk) 04:09, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Coord note -- did I miss a source review? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:52, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Source review
 * Refs 32, 40, 46, 88, 92 and 94 are dead
 * Ref 17: Is Haerty Classic Cars a self-published magazine? I'm not sure if it meets the definition of a high-quality source.
 * Ref 25: Are there other sources that call M-1 the "Father Road"? This book seems to be published by a niche publisher.
 * Refs 35 and 42 are behind paywalls
 * Ref 36 seems like a blog post and could be easily replaced with a better source
 * Ref 41 seems like a low-quality source, as that series of books (Arcadia's Images of America)

Otherwise all good.  Sounder Bruce  00:23, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * the first set of refs just needed no removed so that the citations would switch to the archived copies. Hagerty Classic Cars is a magazine produced by Hagerty Insurance and available by subscription to readers who aren't customers of theirs. (The company is a leader in collector car insurance in the US and Canada and works with several national companies like Progressive Insurance and Hemmings Motor News.) as for the other items, I've commented out the "Father Road" details for now, pending the location of other sources, better sources. I've also tagged the two sources now behind a paywall, and replaced the other two cites.  Imzadi 1979  →   01:46, 2 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The Hagerty ref is fine, then. As all other issues have been resolved, I will support based on my source review.  Sounder Bruce  01:56, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Closing comment -- appear to be quite a few duplinks in the article; I won't hold up promotion over them but pls check and rationalise as appropriate (you can use this script to highlight -- note that it boxes the initial instances in green and the subsequent/duplicate instances in red). Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:01, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * I took a look and pulled three, however the rest are duplicates between the three major prose sections and the lead and not within said sections, allowable per the guidelines.  Imzadi 1979  →   04:57, 3 July 2017 (UTC)

Ian Rose (talk) 03:02, 3 July 2017 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.